10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents
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Given that I have finally recruited my new CTO and he started today I thought I would write up my thoughts on recruitment agencies. The guys in the office know immediately when one rings me up because my normal pleasant demeanor (honest) suddenly disappears and is replaced with that of the attitude of someone who has had a visit from (Jehovah witness, bailiffs, tax collector). So if you are a recruitment agency I’d advise you not read any further.
These are my 10 reasons why I have this rather unhealthy attitude towards them.
1. Asking ‘What is your interview process’
This is a classic, every agency wants to give their candidate ‘the edge’ by finding out what our techniques are for recruitment, I deliberately give them random feedback or just ignore this as I don’t want the interview to be prepared! That is the whole point, if they need to prepare for an interview then they ‘ARE THE WRONG PERSON!!’
2. Ring you up to tell you nothing
This really gets me going, so either
- they send me an email and then ring up immediately afterwards to ask me what they thought of the email, do they think I do not have a reply button?
- They ring up to have a ‘a chat’ - right yes someone working in public sector may have time to while away but I actually have a job to do
3. Asking to come meet us
At some point every agency decides (mostly at the beginning) that it would be good ‘to come meet’ - Why do they want to do this? Well they think they can better ‘judge’ the sort of person who fits into my company. WRONG - Only I know this, what they are really trying to do is build a bond with your company and that by visiting they will get some preferential treatment. DOUBLE WRONG.
4. Editing Candidate CV’s
Yes this happens ALL the time. It is an easy one to spot because if you get CV’s from more than one agency you can compare them if you get the same person from different agencies. And what the edits? Normally they have added any particular requirements that you have specified, or rejigged it so that the bits you are looking for are the most prominent.
5. Lying
Yup, all of them, all the time. Whatever they need to do including lying is the name of the game. In the last 6 months I have made it 100% clear to all the agencies I work with that we are not interested in contractors, or anyone who has previously been contracting. But I repeatedly got people who on the CV showed as permanent then turned out (when I got references) that they were actually contracting.
What else? If it gives them an edge then they will forget / deceive / outright lie if required.
6. Imaginary Companies
Another favourite, if you have a candidate that you are really interested in (and they get wind of this) then all kind of imaginary companies can appear that are also ‘interested’ and are likely to be offering more than you. Do not fall for this ploy, pay what you want someone is worth and ignore anything else.
7. Spam
They love it, spam spam spam. There are several UK based agencies (and I am sure we are not alone) that the general business plan is to basically spider the web find anyone making any mention of needing programmers and then randomly emailing them candidates that they are never going to want. I have sent numerous emails to these companies asking to be taken off their mailing lists, never to any avail.
8. Removing Contact Details
The other little CV editing that takes place is the removal of any way of us contacting the candidate directly. Because the judge us on their own terms that we are not trust worthy enough to go off and recruit that person directly. So you get stupid things like not displaying surnames (you only get that once you go to full interview!) or when setting up a telephone interview they use their internal phone system to connect you both together rather than just giving you the number.
9. Recruiting those they just placed
I have caught out several agencies trying to poach people that they have previously placed with me. Basically all recruitment agencies store their databases on ROM (read only memory) because try as you might it is impossible to get yourself removed. So once they have placed someone with you, they still appear in their listings, and so they still come back and ring them up again to see if they ‘are happy’.
The most fun way to handle this is to have them hand over the phone and say in the nicest voice ‘Hi there, this is [insert name]’s manager, how can I help you?’ you wouldnt believe how fast they try and get off the phone.
10. Lastly they are all scum
I am sure they are actually nice people outside of their work but the pressures to work on a commission make them do things that normal people would never stoop so low to do.
Just to balance this article, I will add my one thing I like about them.
They on occasion find me brilliant people
I would be very interested to hear your stories. And also if you know any agencies that do not behave like this please let me know!
As always if you want more frequent updates the best place to find me is on twitter
Good article, largely true (and made me smile) although I have now got 2 agencies who on the whole don't ...
im the best coder alive 
Oye, Altaf hussain kisi kutay ka puter hay. Us ki ma ki ankh. 
well you do have a point! :) so which part are you from then? no specifics required just the city ...
I can understand what you are saying....quite a few are awful, most are reasonably good, a few are exceptional.... 
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[...] 10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents 4. Editing Candidate CV’s. Yes this happens ALL the time. It is an easy one to spot because if you get CV’s from more than one agency you can compare them if you get the same person from different agencies. And what the edits? … [...]
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Comment by Steve on 1 July 2008:
I got my latest job through a recruitment agency, and I AM one of those brilliant people you mention
Perhaps I was lucky, or maybe it’s because I’m the recruitee rather than the recruiter, but I had a great experience with my agency. They generally left me alone unless they thought they had something that really was suitable for me.
Comment by Steven on 1 July 2008:
Wow your a modest one aren’t you Steve.
continue patting your own ego, im sure nobody else will.
Comment by James on 1 July 2008:
I’ve been on the other end of the recruiter system, as someone looking for work via agencies.
After one interview where I was flat-out lied to by the recruiter I’ve vowed to never use their services again; and thankfully in that case the company realised she had been lying to me and promptly sacked her, too!
Comment by Jonathan on 2 July 2008:
Nick - I completely sympathize… I have been a contractor for eight years and have been lied to by recruiters many times. It’s really unnerving.
The reasons why I work as a contractor are:
1. Contractors paid more than employees.
2. In most cases, companies treat their contractors with more respect than their employees (getting more support from upper level executives, and more interesting and challenging assignments).
3. Contractors have more flexibility for taking vacations than employees.
The downside is that I am that not considered for certain jobs (I noticed you screen for employees only)…. But that policy has been the exception and not the rule in my experience.
The real problem with the system, in my opinion, is that employers don’t value recruitment as much as they should in the IT industry. The most successful companies IMHO
(a) Are extremely picky about who they hire.
(b) Use all of their networks including local talent working on relevant open source projects, local college coding talent, employees’ connections, advertising, job boards, etc.
(c) Screen their candidates along many dimensions rigorously.
(d) Find most of their talent from hard work (and eventually their reputation in the IT community) and are not so lazy that they are willing to pay a recruiters tens of thousands of dollars for decent candidates instead of doing the basic legwork themselves.
(e) Have a dynamic and nurturing learning environment so that they are ‘growing’ their bench every day and can promote internally instead of finding talent on the outside… Also (and this is KEY) this kind of environment reduces turnover, so you don’t NEED recruiters.
Just my $0.02…
Comment by MonkeyT on 2 July 2008:
I’m co-organizer of a large PHP user group and we actively invite both employers and recruiters to attend meetings. Why? If recruiters tell businesses that finding good PHP developers is impossibly hard, business decide against PHP. If they tell businesses that they have a good relationship with a large body of PHP developers, businesses get a more accurate picture of how much talent is in the area and how viable setting up and maintaining a PHP project can be. As for their character, the flakes don’t show up at all, most show up once to introduce themselves (which is all we allow at the meetings, we DO NOT provide contact information - they can hand out their contact info and anyone interested can take it). A few firms have been outstanding supporters, finding a half-dozen of our members full time work and bringing in developers that they placed who were unaware of our group. Our primary goal is to develop the job market, and recruiters are often very loud voices in that market. Keeping them on good terms is an advantage to both sides. Just don’t let flakes make the rules.
Pingback by Experiencias de Nick Halstead con agencias de reclutamiento de personal on 2 July 2008:
[...] Me ha llamado mucho la atención un post de Nick Halstead , ZCE y experto director de desarrollo, en el que cuenta sus experiencias con empresas que reclutan personal con las que ha trabajado y 10 razones por las que las odia. [...]
Comment by John Wards on 2 July 2008:
The company I now work for refused to deal with recruitment agents at all and we do all our own recruitment using some of the new companies who post your job description and manage CVs etc for you.
I nearly lost out on my current job where I applied direct to the company, a recruitment company emailed my current boss 3 days after my application with my CV attached and his terms of business which basically said if my boss employed opened the attached CV and then at any point recruited the attached person they would own a finders fee….after a 2 pronged attack by the boss and myself the recruitment agent went away.
We generally add any recruitment agents domain to our spam filter when they spam us, replying to them that this is the case.
Also we have a tally up to see how many recruitment agents can get past Dan who answers the phone. Hes usually good at sniffing them out, but we get the odd sneeky one. Its currently 5 - 2 in Dans favour for this year.
Pingback by 2 More Reasons To Hate Recruiters on 2 July 2008:
[...] read Nick Halstead’s “10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents” with [...]
Comment by tieTYT on 2 July 2008:
Interesting article. I wish I thought of it…
I think the biggest problem with recruiters is a conflict of interest. They want you to hire *anyone* and you’re looking to hire the best.
When it comes to hiring for a technical position, they’re clueless. But what do you expect? They’re in sales. Why would a sales person be good at distinguishing a good developer from a bad one? They can’t. All they’ve got to work with is your resume and your answers to questions like, “How good are you at C-pound?”.
Comment by Johny on 2 July 2008:
Well i only worked with recruitment agencies from Contractors side and i must say there are good and bad ones.
Like some called me “yeah we checked your CV and we are searching for a “Senior Delphi Developer”, so far i got one Delphi reference on my project which was beside school about 10 years ago, and they would like to send me on a “Senior Delphi Developer” job, so that seems for me about the quiality of them.
Comment by Topbit on 2 July 2008:
A number of years ago, I was working with one small recruiter to optimise my CV a little for a position, then, the local big agency called me up and told me they had already sent my CV to the same company. That in itself is a big no-no, but what made it even worse was the woman from the big company and the guy from the small - were _married_.
Comment by fsilber on 2 July 2008:
I understand most of your complaints. The exception is: “4. Editing Candidate CV’s …Normally they have added any particular requirements that you have specified, or rejigged it so that the bits you are looking for are the most prominent.”
Adding competencies you seek that the candidate lacks falls under the category of lying. But if the candidate has those competencies, it is to both party’s benefit to make prominent those you seek. I’ve been told that when an employer receives a batch of resumes he typically scans each one for a total of three seconds. (On a commuting train I’ve seen a businessman going through a pile of resumes that fast.)
If the competencies you seek are buried among all the other competencies, you might not notice them and mistakenly ignore that candidate, assuming him unqualified.
Pingback by Tips for landing a php job in London » oneafrikan.com on 2 July 2008:
[...] DO: Read this first: http://www.nickhalstead.com/2008/07/01/10-reasons-why-i-hate-recruitment-agents/ [...]
Comment by Jenn on 2 July 2008:
I think you may be a little confused about what recruitment agents (in the US we actually call them “contract agencies”) actually DO and how they make money… I agree I hate their scummy/annoying tactics 2-7, 9-10. But most companies prefer to have a “trial period” and do contract-to-hire stuff, so don’t be surprised because you are asking for something unusual. Also the contact info for the hire is basically their only asset so don’t be shocked that they don’t just hand it over. “Facilitating” your interview process is what they do. Oh well I’m done defending them… as far as I’m concerned they’re only a tiny hop above used car salesmen, only less intelligent, and the ONLY reason I deal with them is because companies don’t do their own HR work anymore. The only way to get a job is to post your resume and wait for the spam and slimy phone calls to commence.
Comment by David Goodwin on 2 July 2008:
I love your comment about ROM - it’s so true - my wife has asked many, many agencies to remove her from their contact list under the data protection act etc, and they just don’t - and they keep phoning back
Comment by MB on 2 July 2008:
I think I’ve just figured out why I always get a request for my CV (which happens to be pdf) as a Word file. thanks
Pingback by A new way of looking at that tired old resume « Getting Technical on 3 July 2008:
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Comment by Kimberly on 3 July 2008:
I have been in recruitment for 4 years and there are I agree some ruthless agents out there that give a lot of us a bad name. I also recruit for programmers and have had 26 days training on my market n my first year( development) to make sure that i know my stuff and then 7 a year subsequently- not just any training either; Ade Mccormack trainined me.
This industry is very small and bad agents make their name quickly but they do not last. Candidates make or break your name so you need to treat them well- as for the comments that we are just sales people; that is frankly shortsighted! we are consultants and I have advised against one of my candidates to a manager i have been recruiting for for years because another agent had put a spec CV forward first of a candidate I knew and thought was better. If you lie and cheat no one will come back to you for another contractor- and your contractors will not want to extend. Ask around there are some rogues but also take care giving this level of public slander will only mean that good agent willing to stay in the office until 10.30 pm finding cv’s for the technical architec who is fluent in french will no longer be prepared to do so. In this industry we are gaining more and choice about who we work for… believe me i do not want to call you to chase feedback- setting rules of engagement eliminates this annoying cat and mouse game that agents often play.
well my rant i guess is over and the final words- dont tar us all with the same brush. I am an excellent consultant with testimonials to that affect. I treat all my candidates fairly and honestly, even when feedback is not great. I set rules of engagement so i am not harassing managers and wasting my time in the process- frankly the word i am hinting at strongly is professional. Unfortunately in this game you get for what you pay for and my agency charges 25% but for a hasstle free recruitment life wouldnt you pay it?
Comment by Rick on 3 July 2008:
I don’t completely agree with 4 being such a bad thing as long as it’s truthful. When I’m on the jobseeker end of the equation, I never let a recruiter edit my CV, but I do find it helpful if a recruiter asks me to emphasize or expand on certain things, so I can keep my CV concise and to the point without leaving out stuff an employer could be very interested in.
Generally I’m not a big fan of recruiters, and I try to circumvent them as much as possible, but I have on rare occasions encountered recruiters that managed to make awesome matches neither side would ever have made by just looking at CV’s and job descriptions by doing exactly some of those things you describe. However annoying (and often deceitful) they may be, having a third party involved in your recruitment process can be very helpful.
Comment by DG on 3 July 2008:
( Kimberly - clearly you need to send me your details! )
From my own experience, as an occassional contractor, I’ve come across some great agencies who phone each week to make sure everything is going well, who pay quickly and so on.
On the other hand, you get people approaching you for totally inappropriate positions/placements and it’s a amusing when two different agencies approach you for the same job - and offer vastly differing sums of money (225/day vs 350/day). Perhaps the recruitment industry needs greater regulation or some sort of code of conduct?
Pingback by Recruitment Agents are Scum! | Recruitment Views on 3 July 2008:
[...] article in question was by Nick Halstead, entitled “10 Reasons why I hate Recruitment Agents”, what made it stand out was that it was from a clients perspective not a candidates. What I think [...]
Comment by Jessica on 3 July 2008:
On the Point of - 3. Asking to come meet us
Here is a really simple question do you meet your clients???
Because it strikes me that anyone in business that will not meet you is the one not to be trusted.
Pingback by W&S bureau’s kunnen dit beter niet lezen… nee, echt niet! | Knipoog | Recruitment Matters - Alles over online recruitment on 3 July 2008:
[...] Maar vandaag wil ik eens een uitzondering maken en online recruitment van een andere kant bekijken. Vanuit het perspectief van de werkgever. En ik wil dat doen aan de hand van een vertaling van het zeer fraaie werkje: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Recruitment Agents [...]
Comment by Danny on 7 July 2008:
What a prize pric%k, find the candidates yourself, if we lived in an ideal world we would all be on the beach all day. F%&K %FF U Bald T%%%%%…
Comment by Cnick on 8 July 2008:
Unfortunetly, all what you’ve said is true.
I am on the other side, i am seeking employment for some time now and it’s always the same dirty game with agencies.
Then your reputation is affected if they are broadcasting your CV to everybody.
But what’s the alternative?
Comment by DG on 8 July 2008:
@Cnick - get “involved” - especially if it’s an Open Source language, (PHP/Python/Perl/Ruby etc) - there are likely to be user groups - join the mailing lists, participate, find a project that interests you and join in…. eventually you’ll build up contacts and also some experience.
Comment by Brian K. Jones on 11 July 2008:
I’m wondering why an employer would ask *not* to see CVs of candidates who have “previously been contracting”? I’m considering becoming 100% independent as a contractor, but if an opportunity presented itself to become a permanent employee, I’d like to think I have as good a shot as anyone else at getting the job.
Do you mean to say that you don’t want to see CVs of people who have no intention of ever becoming a permanent employee of your firm?
Comment by recrec on 12 July 2008:
I’m a recruitment consultant and I hire IT people.
I can see your points. Yes, some recruiters will do anything to get business and will stoop to great depths to get their commission. But some of us aren’t like that. Some of us have morals and stick to them and we’re very successful as a result.
Clients are partly to blame - and don’t shoot me for this - you can’t accuse us of using ’sneaky’ tactics to get business when it’s your behaviour towards us that drives us to do it. Sometimes sales people have something you will want or need. SHOCK HORROR! We don’t all sell double glazing, gasp!!! But because you refuse to acknowledge this as the case and train your receptionists to get rid of us and make sure your other staff say “sorry, not interested” before we’ve even said who we are, we are forced to get round the red tape because nine times out of ten when you actually get through to someone and explain what you’re offering, they’re very receptive.
But on the flip side, clients can and do screw us over. Of course we’re going to hide the candidate’s contact details from you - you clearly don’t have any idea how difficult it can be to find good candidates sometimes (often we have to headhunt for them which is not easy) so we’re not going to risk you going after the candidate yourself, especially if it is highly unlikely you would have found them on your own. Believe it or not, that is providing a service and most businesses in the world expect to be paid for providing a service.
Can you imagine how demoralising it is when you have spent time finding out what kind of candidate the client wants and then spending days finding the ideal candidate for them, only for them to take the candidate themselves without even acknowledging what you’ve done?
We’re the same as you - we’ve been burnt by bad people in our respective industries and we’re super cautious as a result.
I see so many people moan about sales people only looking out for themselves, yet they never ever stop to think that maybe that person is working their arse off for them - just because you can’t see what they’re doing does not mean they’re sitting on their thumbs and playing tetris all day.
I object to the ‘no recruiter can tell a good programmer from a bad one, they’re sales people’. If you knew anything about sales you would know that to be a good one you have to know about what you’re talking about. I personally spent 4 years working for an IT company before I started in IT recruitment so I can safely say that I do actually know the technical ins and outs of the people I hire.
Comment by John Robert on 12 July 2008:
Nick,
I am a recruitment professional and I will admit that some agencies behave in an extremely unprofessional manner, I hope I’m not one of them. Now my response, THERE IS A FLIPSIDE TO EVERY COIN.
9 out of ten clients, no matter their intentions they will lie.
Many clients are as bad as the many rogue agencies, i.e. they will contact the candidate directly and coach them to say they aren’t looking for work so they are free to place without a fee, this is why CV’s are edited, if I have time I also send all my cv’s out in the same format for better presentation but thats neither here now there.
ASKING WHAT IS YOUR INTERVIEW PROCESS - Personally I only asked this question to see whether or not the client is a time waster, in the professional world, it is all about time scales. I want to know if they are going to ‘mug me about’, most of them try.
I’m actually quite bored of dignifying those comments and i’m bored of trying to defend recruitment agents. The fact of the matter is;
SOME AGENTS ARE LYING CHEATING LITTLE F@&£ERS!….. BUT….
SOME CLIENTS ARE LYING CHEATING LITTLE F@&£ERS!
And so the circle continues. And the people in the recruitment industry (like me) who do know what they’re talking about, who have morals, who meet clients just to put faces to the voice on the phone and get a free lunch/couple of beers on the company credit card, dont get the thanks they should.
Pingback by A new gig and a gag « Getting Technical on 23 July 2008:
[...] to blog a little about recruiting 2.0 or recruiters or that sort of thing as we all have a love hate relationship with that. We need to recruiters to find people but they can, on occassion be [...]
Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 23 July 2008:
Nick, thanks for this little rant against all Executive Search professionals in the world here. Today, I’ve learned that you’ve concluded the following through your life journeys to date:
“Yup, all of them [lie], all the time.”
“Lastly they are all scum.”
“I am sure they are actually nice people outside of their work but the pressures to work on a commission make them do things that normal people would never stoop so low to do.”
Nick, let me be upfront that I can see you’ve had (and continue to have) negative experiences with recruiters working for firms that force/entice the individual to negotiate compromises with their values. In fact, I wrote an article of experiences I encountered while working for a firm like this in Atlanta, GA (USA). The link can be found at: http://www.lgexec.com (”The BIG BOX STAFFING AGENCY EXPOSED”).
In essence, I see many of the same behaviors with many recruiters still today. However, I can honestly assure you that the top 10% do not engage in this type of conduct. Although I must battle each of your above assumptions on a daily basis, it’s become easier and easier as I’ve built my name on the right foundational principles.
My honest recommendation is to take your entire vendor list and cut it down to 15% of where it stands today. Then, develop true relationships with only those firms that you respect and have delivered for you, time and time again. I do believe you’ll cut out 90% of the negativity you describe, and above all else, your results will improve tremendously. It may take a few lunches and breakfast meetings together to earn each other’s trust and find common ground, but that being said, we’re not talking about a hostage negotiation here.
Good luck with this, Nick - continuing on with your same behavior will not eradicate the problem and your thinking/behavior will be no different 24 months from now, so I truly recommend attacking the root of the issue at hand. I hope this helps!
Joshua Letourneau
Mg Director, LG & Assoc Search / Talent Strategy
BLOG: http://www.lgexec.com
jletourneau(at)lgexec.com
Comment by Rosie on 25 July 2008:
I work for a recruitment consultancy - a reputable, ethical business by the way - and can assure you that not all search professional act in the more dubious ways you describe.
Some of the gripes you have with recruiters are genuinely ways to help you find the ‘incredible people’ you mention at the end of your article. Asking about the interview process simply allows your recruiter to engage the candidate, give them something to think about etc. Trying to build a relationship with you - i.e. by meeting you - allows them to recognise the right candidates but more importantly helps them to close the right person at the end of the process.
Lastly, your approach seems predicated on a desire for a search professional to make as little effort as possible to recruit. Aside from the fact that agencies aren’t charities (!), only there for you to waste their time, it’s likely that your approach will in the end find you the wrong people, who will leave your business quickly because you didn’t put enough energy into recruiting them to begin with.
Comment by Zeo on 25 July 2008:
Hi,
I agree with you 100%. Let me tell you my experience with one of these agencies based in London. The recruiter calls me up, tells me the job description. All is well, the interview is set up, and I ace it. The salary he said was 26K. Everything is fine, except they offer me much much less. The recruiter goes that he was not aware of what the salary was.
While all of this was happening he was blackmailing me into accepting a verbal offer to him. Basically he was saying “accept and then I will get you the offer, otherwise forget it”. Clearing he was pressurising me and now that I think about it, he made up all the other candidates he told me because it was his @$$ on the line.
Anyway, I turned down the offer as something much better came along. And you know how the agent took it? He replied:
“Thank you for completely wasting mine and their time and for the phone call. Very professional of you.”
I could feel my blood boiling. How dare he says that? I felt like flamming him and his company completly. But I think the better approach would be to send the hireing company this reply, and basically get them to decide his attitude. That would probably hurt the most.
But just on what you have said, really, Recruiter are not your friend. I learned it the cold hard way. But its true. People told me that, but i didnt agree koz hey, they really are friendly but now that I think about it, seems more like they are deceiving, lieing fools only to make a quick buck of the commission.
Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 25 July 2008:
Zeo, you were obviously dealing with a complete *sshole. As you know, there are TONS of them in this business.
There is one thing I’ve witnessed to date in the recruiting profession: IT is the breeding ground of the majority of this garbage. Why? Because, in my estimation, it comes down to the lure of the market’s financial size (Upper mgmt and Third-party Recruiting Managers get starry-eyed when they conceive a market of such proportion).
The result? You have a bunch of young people being recruited in to bang out 120+ calls each day . . . young people who are taught that “Business is War” (a farce!) and that it comes down to “cut throats or have your own cut.”
Furthermore, IT Contracting is even WORSE due to globalization. With recruiting centers being set up in India . . . and waves of H1-b candidates coming en masse to the U.S. . . . our market has been destroyed for home-grown talent. It’s a perfect storm.
Anyway, let me assure all of you that you can find a good recruiter with a good name if you’re willing. Ask for a referral, ask who is respected . . . and whatever you do, DON’T PUT YOUR RESUME OUT THERE AS WALLPAPER FOR EVERY HR REP AND THIRD-PARTY RECRUITER ON THE PLANET! This is what leads to the roaches coming out - use the power of confidentiality and leverage the aura of the ‘passive candidate’. Trust me - it works.
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:
This is a great article. Yes, I hate recruitment agencies. They are scum, totally in agreement. The only real joy I’ve had is applying direct to companies. Recruiment agencies should be disbanded they are paracites and 1000s seem to spring up.
With recruitment agencies they call you up to offer you jobs that no one else wants then they promise to get in touch with you and never do. They are staffed by a load of low grade soft course uni grads who spent their whole time boozing and socialising
I’ve seen preening, pretenious, adverts like this:
——
Graduate IT Developers - ShaftYou Recruitment Ltd.
We are looking for brilliant top notch IT graduates AAA A Levels, preferably a 1st from Oxbridge and 3 years working for a leading company in the role. In return we will ofer you a great salary of £14k a year and a 3 month contract.
Apply now for an immmediate response (honest).
—–
I suppose they get the other £10k fees right. I this day and age I wouldn’t even get out of bed for less than £20k a year. Stuff these wankers.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:
Amazing reading some of these comments. I’ve been in the recruitment industry for 20 years….
Let’s straighten a few myths - I’ve never advertised a ‘fake’ role - If I advertise a fake role, I get 25 people calling / emailing me a day responding…why do I want to waste my time speaking to people when I don’t have a role for them, I have better things to do with my time I assure you than fielding calls from candidates…
I have NEVER approached staff I have placed in other companies, if my client found out I would never get business there again, If I have a successful track record with a client, I want to carry on dealing with them !!! Sure I may approach the candidates to ask him/her if he had any colleagues or friends from within his/her previous employer that might be interested
I have NEVER edited a candidates CV, sure i’ll tell them my opinion on their CV - which they mostly appreciate, but i’ll tell them my opinion and let them change it…
Agencies can be especially useful if you want to keep roles confidential due to a death of an employee, or there being somebody in the client company who is in the ‘departure’ lounge, or if you didn’t want your competitors to know you were expanding….using a ‘Box’ number is ok but it puts candidates off as they think it might be their current employer and also be somebody they don’t want to work for !!!!
Agencies like to visit companies, because they like to get a feel for the ethos of that company, and can paint a picture before they send a candidate to an interview.
If an agency says that the candidate has other roles on the go then fine believe them, what is there to think about that you haven’t thought about already ? but TIME is the biggest killer of all deals in the recruitment industry. In 20 years I have seen so many companies procrastinate and lost a good candidate due to poor recruitment process on the part of the client.
There are excellent recruiters out there as well as some pretty awful ones. - About 10 years ago, I received a perfect CV from a Java expert for a role I had in London, I called and called, left messages, emailed the guy, he kept emailing me asking who it was…I discovered that there was no such address that was written on his CV. And left him a message saying I suspected that he was an agent trying to find out who my client was. He emailed me back warning me that he knew who I was and that I didn’t know him, and some threats about punching me….luckily enough this idiot didn’t realise that I had traced his IP back to his news server and it gave me the name of the ‘big’ IT recruiter he worked for….rang his MD at 8:00 the next morning telling him the story…needless to say they found out who it was and the guy was sacked !!!
Saying that we are all scum, is just a sweeping statement which speaks volumes about yourself….
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:
And I don’t drink alcohol or take drugs either….:)
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:
An increasing number of reputable UK employers are now recruiting people direct. NO RECRUITMENT AGENCIES THANK YOU.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:
What happens when the skills run out ? as has been demonstrated in a vast amount of markets here in the UK ? Putting an advert in such a place as Poland or Romania is not easy, and even then they don’t respond as job changing is seen as a danger and not a lifestyle change as we see it over here ? until you actually talk to these people via search or headhunt they aren’t interested !!!
Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 6 August 2008:
This post has degenerated to one of latent jealousy . . . and my name is right here so I’m not hiding behind any monikers. In the U.S., a top Executive Recruiter (read: we’re talking big-time roles here, not low-level engineers who are a dime a dozen) will earn over $500k USD annually. That’s Big Money, my friends - real Big Money; Money that not everyone likes to see you make. And those that do their job the right way, not playing the games listed in this post . . . earn even more. It’s a virtuous cycle.
If you hate recruitment agents, and if you buy into the discrimatory groupthink (as most people do, whether we’re talking race, religion, creed, etc.), than don’t use a recruiter to help with your hires or to represent you.
It’s as simple as that. What I will tell you is that the best recruiters don’t run in the low-level, early-career circles . . . and there will come a point in everyone’s career where they need a well-connected mover and shaker to navigate their next move. Top-Talent, Upper-Level Executives don’t use job boards . . . and they maintain their confidentiality to the fullest.
As each of you mature in your careers, trust me that you will understand. High-Level Executive Recruitment is the utmost form of management consulting in the world today.
Over and Out.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:
Well said Josh…
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:
Only 31% of the UK IT grads found an IT job within a year. In supposed shortage sector. http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/What_do_graduates_do__2008/charts_and_tables_pages/p!eaLjjjF?subject_id=17
Much of the so called skills shortage is down to these stupid recruitment agencies and social engineering. Wy should I have to kiss a recruitment agencies ass just to get a poxy code monkey job that only pays a miserable few grand is only a few month contract and the agency gets massive cut of my salary.
It happened with a member of my family his employers had to pay the recruiter £4000 all for talking to him 3 times on the phone. 1. Hello there what job do you want. 2. You’ve got an interview at dot. 3. Congratulations you’ve got the job. £4k please.
In my neck the woods recruitment agencies are springing up like mushrooms.
Comment by tom on 8 August 2008:
you are all sad dickheads I hope you all lose your fucking jobs and heave to beg for recruiters to interview you, you number crunching nerd fucks
Comment by hunter on 13 August 2008:
I agree. i am only on this bull sh*t website because i am taking computer programing
Comment by ass hole on 13 August 2008:
FUCK!!! SHIT!!! MOTHERFUCKER!!! DAMN!!!
Comment by Gertu on 18 August 2008:
Well, from today I decided to passionately despise the so called recruitment agencies. I know some are ethichal and follows their industry standard and all that, but the one I had to speak to today (I can shout out their name Adept-Recruitment) was overbearing beyond belief. It’s so despairing and really boils my blood to think that these clueless, money driven (most of them tend be from sales background), rude and ignorant people are calling themselves as HR specialists and consultants, in fact they just act like a bunch of pimps with no empathy.
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:
Recruitment agencies are just there to make the commission. They don’t care about the person. Let’s wait for the recession then the jobs to dry up and see how smug they are then.
To be fair there are genuinely top agencies out there who are really good who want to find the best job for you. There are many tin pot places with just a couple of people who call themselves leading.
‘GOD DANM SHIT FUCK MOTHERFUCKER YEAH’ - Asshole
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
This is a reply to and aimed at BillBoy. Mr bill, you are an ass. Your head is in your own ass. You are a walking, drifting peace of ass. Some big shot gun is going to rape that walking ass, probaby did a few times over as well.
You all recruiters are scum of the earth and that is a fact. Wheather you are proud to be the leader of the scum is another matter. Let me punch your lights out by the following FACTS:
a) recruiters advertise fake advertisments. If dont belive it, then you are probably too stupid to realise the fake advertisments your coworkers post and ask you to post. In my experience and quite a lot of experiences (i have done my research and surveys so cork that barking mouth of yours - if you want to bark, first grow out of your milk teeth and grow some real ones!!), there is not a SINGLE one that the job seeker applied to a job and got the one he applied to from these so called job sites. If its by a recruiter, he will take your details, and there will be NO talk on the advertised job, just on the jobs that he has. Hence the advertised one was fake. Admit it or live in a dream world. Your choice!
b) Recruiters edit CVs. If you dont, then you are pretty much stupid. Why? Because if I was the HR and you sent me a cv with their contact number, and if I like the candiate, You and I never met. I will contact the guy my self and there is no court of law where you can prove that you sent me the cv. But I am guessing that you are lieing because if you didnt, you either went out of business or are about to. So listen closely. Recruiters EDIT the cv. They sometimes dont even show the name. They DEFINATLY remove the contact details.
c) You dont hire me. The company does. So dont be try to be smart by going to the company for the welfare of the suitable candidate. The company approaches you for some cvs, you pass them on and they decide which ones they wont not you. The amount of times wiered ass agencies did not like the candiate and the candidate then went up to the company and the situation was different. They infact had hired him but the agency did not forward him the offer as an issue had arrisn with recruiter agency. You do that, and every other recruiter does that. Deniying that denys your very existance because what I have described you is the work ethics and best practices of recruiters. If you are honest, well be prepared to run out of business.
Just my two cents
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
Your spelling is dreadful, i’m not surprised you can’t find a job…a recruiter looking at your CV would HAVE to edit it !! If I was an employer looking at your CV, i’d either think you don’t know how to use a spell checker, or you just never bothered at school…
Peace should be spelt ‘piece’
Definatly should be spelt ‘definitely’
Deniying should be spelt ‘denying’
lieing should be spelt ‘lying’
There you go, i’m afraid your two cents wasn’t even worth 1 Zimbabwean Dollar, but as I have just helped you with your English for free proves us recruiters can’t all be bad…
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
My self is actually one word ‘myself’
wont does contain an apostrophe ‘won’t’ or you could have said ‘will not’
Infact is actually two words ‘in fact’
arrisn, I think you meant to ‘arisen’
denys, again I think you meant ‘denies’
existance is ‘existence’
Jesus your English is appalling, i’d run a mile if your CV came in to my agency !!! do you understand why agencies don’t like you ?
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:
If you can find companies and apply direct. Tip of the day make sure your CV has the right spelling and does not contain any expletives.
Comment by Kimberly on 21 August 2008:
Altaf Bhai thanks for putting your name; as you do not like agencies and clearly there is no use for us to work together. I have 2 people of your name on our database i will call both and get you removed from one of the UKs largest recruitment databased. Thanks for your feedback your job hunt just got harder. ps most of the managers i work with value mu opinion so if they ask my consultant services i will be sure to pass them this blog.
Comment by Venture Capitalise on 21 August 2008:
Hey, Nick - you’ve outdone yourself here. From your LinkedIn profile, I can see you’re the following:
a. CEO & Founder at fav.or.it (10/07 - Present)
b. Co-Founder at Assembleron Limited (4/2007 - Present)
We’d rather invest in an “A-team” with a B-product than a “B-team” with an A-product. And what you’ve shown me here is that you have a hard time justifying an investment in building an A-team. Ironically, this is where I’d want my money (and my investors’ money) spent.
Where would you rather spend our money, Nick? Your post here, and the decision to make it public, is a comedy of errors. Let’s hope you don’t try to come in and pitch our mgmt team for capital.
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:
Kimberly don’t get all high and mighty. This is the probelm with recruiters they seem to feel they have some devine power to accpet or reject people.
It is the company that employs you not the agency. Whenever I can I apply direct to companies / orgs so fuck you!
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
Point taken Jim…
But we do also advise you on your CV, questions to ask at interview, handling counter offers (would you Jim for example accept a counter offer ??), assisting in resignation letters, negotiating a higher salary for you (a lot of people don’t know the range of salary to ask for especially as some jobs don’t advertise the salary), giving you free legal advice on your contracts of employment. Remember some people haven’t changed jobs for 15 years and might need some help…
I’ll give you an example…If you go for a job and they ask you what salary you were looking for most people say well i’m looking for £2k increase or they name a figure…I always tell my candidates never to say a figure, WHY ? Beacuse if you go along for a job and say ‘well Mr/Mrs Employer I feel sure that if you like me, you’ll make me an offer of whatever you feel i’m worth. I’ve had a lot of people thank me for that small piece of advice, one guy did this and got offered £8K more than he would have asked for.
The other reason that employers will use agencies is that they get 500 CV’s to sift through from an ad response, and for an HR Manager, how much does it cost them in their own management time to go through that many CV’s, how much does it cost somebody to respond to all the graduates who have no experience but think after reading one copy of What Computing they are a 3rd Line Support Specialist ? how many of those who on paper look good but are actually not right in person ? and how many of those candidates have LIED on their CV ? How many of those candidates who have a poor CV might actually fit into the team ? is that person ambitious or a plodder ?
A lot of you really don’t know what is involved…!!
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
Lol bill boy thank you for entertaining me! First of this isnt a spelling competition. Plus clearly you have no substance to support your thoughts, you simply pick my spellings which is not even close to the topic at hand.
BTW, you made an assumption that I do not have a job. On the contrary I am a highly paid senior developer.
lol @ Kimberly. Why do you guyz think I am looking for a job? lolz I am simply sharing my experiences. And as Mr. Jim X so rightly put it that it is the company that hires not you, so why dont you simply fuck of. Infact Kimberly, I know who you are, and contact your Manager for removing me from the system without any reason. FUCK YOU!
BTW whoever has spelling mistakes on a CV is an idiot in the first place. Why? because every decent document system has a spell checker. And for the love of God, I am not looking for a job. Yes please remove me from your system.
BTW, altaf bhai is not even a name, if your system picked it up then what can I say, the ppl who put it in their must be idiots too so I suggest you sack them and put some real people in. Dont intemidate me with your hypothetically artificially inflated database of workforce.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
And alot of you recruiters live in a dream world.
Lol! Bill boy will you just shut up!. Agents dont help, they simply fuck up the candidate. All the information on wht to do, on how to negotiate, you can get from the internet. Welcome to the free world my friend.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
And Mr bill. Do you think all the candidate are idiots. Why do you think 9 out of 10 people say agents are the scum of the earth. Beacuase maby 70% really are, putting a bad name for decent ones such as you, so that makes the total figure of ‘bad agents’ around 95%.
Everyone hates you agents because they lie, deceive, cheat, manipulate.
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
You help somebody, tell them where they are going wrong and they still spell badly !!!
Intemidate is actually ‘intimidate’
Beacuase is actually ‘because’
wht is spelt ‘what’
The stupid thing is all the Indian guys i’ve placed this year have been brilliant guys….you don’t do your country any justice at all…
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
Highly paid Senior Developer ?? what skills do you have ??
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
“The stupid thing is all the Indian guys i’ve placed this year have been brilliant guys….you don’t do your country any justice at all…”
WTF has that to do with anything????
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
Altaf Bhai is a hero in Karachi !!!
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
Apologies I called you Indian….You’re actually from Pakistan, I haven’t placed any from there this year…
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
Look. Some people are bad at giving tests, yet they are brillian in their field. I know alot of people who are complete gurus and geeks in programming yet they cannot pass a single certification or programming related exam. Why? Because they are not good test takers.
Same goes for guys with appititude tests. Same goes for spellings. While I understand where you are comming from, but seriously, my spellings have nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
How would you know I am from Pakistan? India has about a billion people. So if you are basing your assumpting on my name being southasian, i could be from any where in that region. But what difference does that make? Are you saying you acctually think twice before forwarding their cv if they have south asian origions???
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
lolz! @ “Altaf Bhai is a hero in Karachi !!!”
Sorry I didnt read that post before. hahahaahhaha omg i cant stop laughing.
Please seriously, if you are pakistani then either you like altaf or you dont. Altaf is certainly NOT a hero in karachi. Infact he probably is the biggest coword in the history of man kind by hiding himself somewhere in london. lolz….but its good to know that you know about politics…
btw this still does not mean I am from pakistan, I too have a good eye on politics…:)
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
For your first point, that’s what we help candidates do if they aren’t good at tests we can help them to become better…I don’t care where they are from, if they want sponsorship and have good skills, and they need help in finding a better opportunity, then we’ll try and help them, it’s as simple as that, i’ve placed 41 people this year from all over the world in the UK/Middle East and Europe, from the Philippines, India, Romania, Poland, South Africa, Zimbabwe….it makes no difference if they want my help i’ll try my best for them. If it was a fresh graduate wanting £70,000 a year as a starting salary, i’d tell him/her to reappraise his/her ambitions or take up a role in close protection in the Helmand Province, If it was a guy/girl wanting to leave his/her job just because he/she wanted more money then i’d tell him to go back and ask his current boss for a payrise, if then he didn’t get it i’d try find him/her something or recommend he/she finds a role in contracting…
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
Well Bill boy I sincerly appologize for my rant on you. Clearly you are the honest and decent agent. But its just that there are so many bad agents. I have a decent experience so I have been through alot of agents, and alot of my coworkers share the same experiences.
It seems the agent tries to be your best friend. They will seem they are honestly helping you but in the end you find out that they did not pass on the offer letter or some other shit happened. And some agents that do not forward their cv because they think you wont fit in the company when clearly it is not their decision to make. With this kind of experiences, its not easy to trust another.
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
The thing is only a person from Pakistan would know that Altaf Bhai is a coward and hiding in London….it certainly hasn’t appeared in any of the British papers !!! Only the Pakistan Tribune and Pakistan Uncut, Insaf.PK seem to mention anything like this…so you ARE a Pakistani….
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:
I can understand what you are saying….quite a few are awful, most are reasonably good, a few are exceptional….
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:
well you do have a point!
so which part are you from then? no specifics required just the city would do 
Comment by Bilawal on 21 August 2008:
Oye, Altaf hussain kisi kutay ka puter hay. Us ki ma ki ankh.
Comment by Ollie C on 26 August 2008:
Good article, largely true (and made me smile) although I have now got 2 agencies who on the whole don’t do the above things and are decent people to deal with (this is now my entrace criteria and I have a strike and your out rule, although dealing with the Agencies you no longer want to work with can be a pain).
One is London based and the other (better one) is Bristol based (main offices are in Oxfordshire). We also use the Zend Framework heavily and finding good ZF people through recruiters is now a lot easier than it was a year or so ago…