10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents

July 1st, 2008 • Related • Filed Under

Given that I have finally recruited my new CTO and he started today I thought I would write up my thoughts on recruitment agencies. The guys in the office know immediately when one rings me up because my normal pleasant demeanor (honest) suddenly disappears and is replaced with that of the attitude of someone who has had a visit from (Jehovah witness, bailiffs, tax collector). So if you are a recruitment agency I’d advise you not read any further.

These are my 10 reasons why I have this rather unhealthy attitude towards them.

1. Asking ‘What is your interview process’

This is a classic, every agency wants to give their candidate ‘the edge’ by finding out what our techniques are for recruitment, I deliberately give them random feedback or just ignore this as I don’t want the interview to be prepared! That is the whole point, if they need to prepare for an interview then they ‘ARE THE WRONG PERSON!!’

2. Ring you up to tell you nothing

This really gets me going, so either

they send me an email and then ring up immediately afterwards to ask me what they thought of the email, do they think I do not have a reply button?
They ring up to have a ‘a chat’ - right yes someone working in public sector may have time to while away but I actually have a job to do

3. Asking to come meet us

At some point every agency decides (mostly at the beginning) that it would be good ‘to come meet’ - Why do they want to do this? Well they think they can better ‘judge’ the sort of person who fits into my company. WRONG - Only I know this, what they are really trying to do is build a bond with your company and that by visiting they will get some preferential treatment. DOUBLE WRONG.

4. Editing Candidate CV’s

Yes this happens ALL the time. It is an easy one to spot because if you get CV’s from more than one agency you can compare them if you get the same person from different agencies. And what the edits? Normally they have added any particular requirements that you have specified, or rejigged it so that the bits you are looking for are the most prominent.

5. Lying

Yup, all of them, all the time. Whatever they need to do including lying is the name of the game. In the last 6 months I have made it 100% clear to all the agencies I work with that we are not interested in contractors, or anyone who has previously been contracting. But I repeatedly got people who on the CV showed as permanent then turned out (when I got references) that they were actually contracting.
What else? If it gives them an edge then they will forget / deceive / outright lie if required.

6. Imaginary Companies

Another favourite, if you have a candidate that you are really interested in (and they get wind of this) then all kind of imaginary companies can appear that are also ‘interested’ and are likely to be offering more than you. Do not fall for this ploy, pay what you want someone is worth and ignore anything else.

7. Spam

They love it, spam spam spam. There are several UK based agencies (and I am sure we are not alone) that the general business plan is to basically spider the web find anyone making any mention of needing programmers and then randomly emailing them candidates that they are never going to want. I have sent numerous emails to these companies asking to be taken off their mailing lists, never to any avail.

8. Removing Contact Details

The other little CV editing that takes place is the removal of any way of us contacting the candidate directly. Because the judge us on their own terms that we are not trust worthy enough to go off and recruit that person directly. So you get stupid things like not displaying surnames (you only get that once you go to full interview!) or when setting up a telephone interview they use their internal phone system to connect you both together rather than just giving you the number.

9. Recruiting those they just placed

I have caught out several agencies trying to poach people that they have previously placed with me. Basically all recruitment agencies store their databases on ROM (read only memory) because try as you might it is impossible to get yourself removed. So once they have placed someone with you, they still appear in their listings, and so they still come back and ring them up again to see if they ‘are happy’.

The most fun way to handle this is to have them hand over the phone and say in the nicest voice ‘Hi there, this is [insert name]’s manager, how can I help you?’ you wouldnt believe how fast they try and get off the phone.

10. Lastly they are all scum

I am sure they are actually nice people outside of their work but the pressures to work on a commission make them do things that normal people would never stoop so low to do.

Just to balance this article, I will add my one thing I like about them.

They on occasion find me brilliant people

I would be very interested to hear your stories. And also if you know any agencies that do not behave like this please let me know!

As always if you want more frequent updates the best place to find me is on twitter

There Are 230 Responses So Far. »

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[...] 10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents 4. Editing Candidate CV’s. Yes this happens ALL the time. It is an easy one to spot because if you get CV’s from more than one agency you can compare them if you get the same person from different agencies. And what the edits? … [...]
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Comment by Steve on 1 July 2008:

I got my latest job through a recruitment agency, and I AM one of those brilliant people you mention

Perhaps I was lucky, or maybe it’s because I’m the recruitee rather than the recruiter, but I had a great experience with my agency. They generally left me alone unless they thought they had something that really was suitable for me.
Comment by Steven on 1 July 2008:

Wow your a modest one aren’t you Steve.

continue patting your own ego, im sure nobody else will.
Comment by James on 1 July 2008:

I’ve been on the other end of the recruiter system, as someone looking for work via agencies.

After one interview where I was flat-out lied to by the recruiter I’ve vowed to never use their services again; and thankfully in that case the company realised she had been lying to me and promptly sacked her, too!
Comment by Jonathan on 2 July 2008:

Nick - I completely sympathize… I have been a contractor for eight years and have been lied to by recruiters many times. It’s really unnerving.

The reasons why I work as a contractor are:

1. Contractors paid more than employees.

2. In most cases, companies treat their contractors with more respect than their employees (getting more support from upper level executives, and more interesting and challenging assignments).

3. Contractors have more flexibility for taking vacations than employees.

The downside is that I am that not considered for certain jobs (I noticed you screen for employees only)…. But that policy has been the exception and not the rule in my experience.

The real problem with the system, in my opinion, is that employers don’t value recruitment as much as they should in the IT industry. The most successful companies IMHO

(a) Are extremely picky about who they hire.

(b) Use all of their networks including local talent working on relevant open source projects, local college coding talent, employees’ connections, advertising, job boards, etc.

(c) Screen their candidates along many dimensions rigorously.

(d) Find most of their talent from hard work (and eventually their reputation in the IT community) and are not so lazy that they are willing to pay a recruiters tens of thousands of dollars for decent candidates instead of doing the basic legwork themselves.

(e) Have a dynamic and nurturing learning environment so that they are ‘growing’ their bench every day and can promote internally instead of finding talent on the outside… Also (and this is KEY) this kind of environment reduces turnover, so you don’t NEED recruiters.

Just my $0.02…
Comment by MonkeyT on 2 July 2008:

I’m co-organizer of a large PHP user group and we actively invite both employers and recruiters to attend meetings. Why? If recruiters tell businesses that finding good PHP developers is impossibly hard, business decide against PHP. If they tell businesses that they have a good relationship with a large body of PHP developers, businesses get a more accurate picture of how much talent is in the area and how viable setting up and maintaining a PHP project can be. As for their character, the flakes don’t show up at all, most show up once to introduce themselves (which is all we allow at the meetings, we DO NOT provide contact information - they can hand out their contact info and anyone interested can take it). A few firms have been outstanding supporters, finding a half-dozen of our members full time work and bringing in developers that they placed who were unaware of our group. Our primary goal is to develop the job market, and recruiters are often very loud voices in that market. Keeping them on good terms is an advantage to both sides. Just don’t let flakes make the rules.
Pingback by Experiencias de Nick Halstead con agencias de reclutamiento de personal on 2 July 2008:

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Comment by John Wards on 2 July 2008:

The company I now work for refused to deal with recruitment agents at all and we do all our own recruitment using some of the new companies who post your job description and manage CVs etc for you.

I nearly lost out on my current job where I applied direct to the company, a recruitment company emailed my current boss 3 days after my application with my CV attached and his terms of business which basically said if my boss employed opened the attached CV and then at any point recruited the attached person they would own a finders fee….after a 2 pronged attack by the boss and myself the recruitment agent went away.

We generally add any recruitment agents domain to our spam filter when they spam us, replying to them that this is the case.

Also we have a tally up to see how many recruitment agents can get past Dan who answers the phone. Hes usually good at sniffing them out, but we get the odd sneeky one. Its currently 5 - 2 in Dans favour for this year.
Pingback by 2 More Reasons To Hate Recruiters on 2 July 2008:

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Comment by tieTYT on 2 July 2008:

Interesting article. I wish I thought of it…

I think the biggest problem with recruiters is a conflict of interest. They want you to hire *anyone* and you’re looking to hire the best.

When it comes to hiring for a technical position, they’re clueless. But what do you expect? They’re in sales. Why would a sales person be good at distinguishing a good developer from a bad one? They can’t. All they’ve got to work with is your resume and your answers to questions like, “How good are you at C-pound?”.
Comment by Johny on 2 July 2008:

Well i only worked with recruitment agencies from Contractors side and i must say there are good and bad ones.

Like some called me “yeah we checked your CV and we are searching for a “Senior Delphi Developer”, so far i got one Delphi reference on my project which was beside school about 10 years ago, and they would like to send me on a “Senior Delphi Developer” job, so that seems for me about the quiality of them.
Comment by Topbit on 2 July 2008:

A number of years ago, I was working with one small recruiter to optimise my CV a little for a position, then, the local big agency called me up and told me they had already sent my CV to the same company. That in itself is a big no-no, but what made it even worse was the woman from the big company and the guy from the small - were _married_.
Comment by fsilber on 2 July 2008:

I understand most of your complaints. The exception is: “4. Editing Candidate CV’s …Normally they have added any particular requirements that you have specified, or rejigged it so that the bits you are looking for are the most prominent.”

Adding competencies you seek that the candidate lacks falls under the category of lying. But if the candidate has those competencies, it is to both party’s benefit to make prominent those you seek. I’ve been told that when an employer receives a batch of resumes he typically scans each one for a total of three seconds. (On a commuting train I’ve seen a businessman going through a pile of resumes that fast.)

If the competencies you seek are buried among all the other competencies, you might not notice them and mistakenly ignore that candidate, assuming him unqualified.
Pingback by Tips for landing a php job in London » oneafrikan.com on 2 July 2008:

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Comment by Jenn on 2 July 2008:

I think you may be a little confused about what recruitment agents (in the US we actually call them “contract agencies”) actually DO and how they make money… I agree I hate their scummy/annoying tactics 2-7, 9-10. But most companies prefer to have a “trial period” and do contract-to-hire stuff, so don’t be surprised because you are asking for something unusual. Also the contact info for the hire is basically their only asset so don’t be shocked that they don’t just hand it over. “Facilitating” your interview process is what they do. Oh well I’m done defending them… as far as I’m concerned they’re only a tiny hop above used car salesmen, only less intelligent, and the ONLY reason I deal with them is because companies don’t do their own HR work anymore. The only way to get a job is to post your resume and wait for the spam and slimy phone calls to commence.
Comment by David Goodwin on 2 July 2008:

I love your comment about ROM - it’s so true - my wife has asked many, many agencies to remove her from their contact list under the data protection act etc, and they just don’t - and they keep phoning back
Comment by MB on 2 July 2008:

I think I’ve just figured out why I always get a request for my CV (which happens to be pdf) as a Word file. thanks
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Comment by Kimberly on 3 July 2008:

I have been in recruitment for 4 years and there are I agree some ruthless agents out there that give a lot of us a bad name. I also recruit for programmers and have had 26 days training on my market n my first year( development) to make sure that i know my stuff and then 7 a year subsequently- not just any training either; Ade Mccormack trainined me.

This industry is very small and bad agents make their name quickly but they do not last. Candidates make or break your name so you need to treat them well- as for the comments that we are just sales people; that is frankly shortsighted! we are consultants and I have advised against one of my candidates to a manager i have been recruiting for for years because another agent had put a spec CV forward first of a candidate I knew and thought was better. If you lie and cheat no one will come back to you for another contractor- and your contractors will not want to extend. Ask around there are some rogues but also take care giving this level of public slander will only mean that good agent willing to stay in the office until 10.30 pm finding cv’s for the technical architec who is fluent in french will no longer be prepared to do so. In this industry we are gaining more and choice about who we work for… believe me i do not want to call you to chase feedback- setting rules of engagement eliminates this annoying cat and mouse game that agents often play.

well my rant i guess is over and the final words- dont tar us all with the same brush. I am an excellent consultant with testimonials to that affect. I treat all my candidates fairly and honestly, even when feedback is not great. I set rules of engagement so i am not harassing managers and wasting my time in the process- frankly the word i am hinting at strongly is professional. Unfortunately in this game you get for what you pay for and my agency charges 25% but for a hasstle free recruitment life wouldnt you pay it?
Comment by Rick on 3 July 2008:

I don’t completely agree with 4 being such a bad thing as long as it’s truthful. When I’m on the jobseeker end of the equation, I never let a recruiter edit my CV, but I do find it helpful if a recruiter asks me to emphasize or expand on certain things, so I can keep my CV concise and to the point without leaving out stuff an employer could be very interested in.

Generally I’m not a big fan of recruiters, and I try to circumvent them as much as possible, but I have on rare occasions encountered recruiters that managed to make awesome matches neither side would ever have made by just looking at CV’s and job descriptions by doing exactly some of those things you describe. However annoying (and often deceitful) they may be, having a third party involved in your recruitment process can be very helpful.
Comment by DG on 3 July 2008:

( Kimberly - clearly you need to send me your details! )

From my own experience, as an occassional contractor, I’ve come across some great agencies who phone each week to make sure everything is going well, who pay quickly and so on.

On the other hand, you get people approaching you for totally inappropriate positions/placements and it’s a amusing when two different agencies approach you for the same job - and offer vastly differing sums of money (225/day vs 350/day). Perhaps the recruitment industry needs greater regulation or some sort of code of conduct?
Pingback by Recruitment Agents are Scum! | Recruitment Views on 3 July 2008:

[...] article in question was by Nick Halstead, entitled “10 Reasons why I hate Recruitment Agents”, what made it stand out was that it was from a clients perspective not a candidates. What I think [...]
Comment by Jessica on 3 July 2008:

On the Point of - 3. Asking to come meet us

Here is a really simple question do you meet your clients???

Because it strikes me that anyone in business that will not meet you is the one not to be trusted.
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Comment by Danny on 7 July 2008:

What a prize pric%k, find the candidates yourself, if we lived in an ideal world we would all be on the beach all day. F%&K %FF U Bald T%%%%%…
Comment by Cnick on 8 July 2008:

Unfortunetly, all what you’ve said is true.
I am on the other side, i am seeking employment for some time now and it’s always the same dirty game with agencies.

Then your reputation is affected if they are broadcasting your CV to everybody.

But what’s the alternative?
Comment by DG on 8 July 2008:

@Cnick - get “involved” - especially if it’s an Open Source language, (PHP/Python/Perl/Ruby etc) - there are likely to be user groups - join the mailing lists, participate, find a project that interests you and join in…. eventually you’ll build up contacts and also some experience.
Comment by Brian K. Jones on 11 July 2008:

I’m wondering why an employer would ask *not* to see CVs of candidates who have “previously been contracting”? I’m considering becoming 100% independent as a contractor, but if an opportunity presented itself to become a permanent employee, I’d like to think I have as good a shot as anyone else at getting the job.

Do you mean to say that you don’t want to see CVs of people who have no intention of ever becoming a permanent employee of your firm?
Comment by recrec on 12 July 2008:

I’m a recruitment consultant and I hire IT people.

I can see your points. Yes, some recruiters will do anything to get business and will stoop to great depths to get their commission. But some of us aren’t like that. Some of us have morals and stick to them and we’re very successful as a result.

Clients are partly to blame - and don’t shoot me for this - you can’t accuse us of using ’sneaky’ tactics to get business when it’s your behaviour towards us that drives us to do it. Sometimes sales people have something you will want or need. SHOCK HORROR! We don’t all sell double glazing, gasp!!! But because you refuse to acknowledge this as the case and train your receptionists to get rid of us and make sure your other staff say “sorry, not interested” before we’ve even said who we are, we are forced to get round the red tape because nine times out of ten when you actually get through to someone and explain what you’re offering, they’re very receptive.

But on the flip side, clients can and do screw us over. Of course we’re going to hide the candidate’s contact details from you - you clearly don’t have any idea how difficult it can be to find good candidates sometimes (often we have to headhunt for them which is not easy) so we’re not going to risk you going after the candidate yourself, especially if it is highly unlikely you would have found them on your own. Believe it or not, that is providing a service and most businesses in the world expect to be paid for providing a service.

Can you imagine how demoralising it is when you have spent time finding out what kind of candidate the client wants and then spending days finding the ideal candidate for them, only for them to take the candidate themselves without even acknowledging what you’ve done?

We’re the same as you - we’ve been burnt by bad people in our respective industries and we’re super cautious as a result.

I see so many people moan about sales people only looking out for themselves, yet they never ever stop to think that maybe that person is working their arse off for them - just because you can’t see what they’re doing does not mean they’re sitting on their thumbs and playing tetris all day.

I object to the ‘no recruiter can tell a good programmer from a bad one, they’re sales people’. If you knew anything about sales you would know that to be a good one you have to know about what you’re talking about. I personally spent 4 years working for an IT company before I started in IT recruitment so I can safely say that I do actually know the technical ins and outs of the people I hire.
Comment by John Robert on 12 July 2008:

Nick,

I am a recruitment professional and I will admit that some agencies behave in an extremely unprofessional manner, I hope I’m not one of them. Now my response, THERE IS A FLIPSIDE TO EVERY COIN.

9 out of ten clients, no matter their intentions they will lie.
Many clients are as bad as the many rogue agencies, i.e. they will contact the candidate directly and coach them to say they aren’t looking for work so they are free to place without a fee, this is why CV’s are edited, if I have time I also send all my cv’s out in the same format for better presentation but thats neither here now there.
ASKING WHAT IS YOUR INTERVIEW PROCESS - Personally I only asked this question to see whether or not the client is a time waster, in the professional world, it is all about time scales. I want to know if they are going to ‘mug me about’, most of them try.

I’m actually quite bored of dignifying those comments and i’m bored of trying to defend recruitment agents. The fact of the matter is;
SOME AGENTS ARE LYING CHEATING LITTLE F@&£ERS!….. BUT….
SOME CLIENTS ARE LYING CHEATING LITTLE F@&£ERS!

And so the circle continues. And the people in the recruitment industry (like me) who do know what they’re talking about, who have morals, who meet clients just to put faces to the voice on the phone and get a free lunch/couple of beers on the company credit card, dont get the thanks they should.
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Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 23 July 2008:

Nick, thanks for this little rant against all Executive Search professionals in the world here. Today, I’ve learned that you’ve concluded the following through your life journeys to date:

“Yup, all of them [lie], all the time.”
“Lastly they are all scum.”
“I am sure they are actually nice people outside of their work but the pressures to work on a commission make them do things that normal people would never stoop so low to do.”

Nick, let me be upfront that I can see you’ve had (and continue to have) negative experiences with recruiters working for firms that force/entice the individual to negotiate compromises with their values. In fact, I wrote an article of experiences I encountered while working for a firm like this in Atlanta, GA (USA). The link can be found at: http://www.lgexec.com (”The BIG BOX STAFFING AGENCY EXPOSED”).

In essence, I see many of the same behaviors with many recruiters still today. However, I can honestly assure you that the top 10% do not engage in this type of conduct. Although I must battle each of your above assumptions on a daily basis, it’s become easier and easier as I’ve built my name on the right foundational principles.

My honest recommendation is to take your entire vendor list and cut it down to 15% of where it stands today. Then, develop true relationships with only those firms that you respect and have delivered for you, time and time again. I do believe you’ll cut out 90% of the negativity you describe, and above all else, your results will improve tremendously. It may take a few lunches and breakfast meetings together to earn each other’s trust and find common ground, but that being said, we’re not talking about a hostage negotiation here.

Good luck with this, Nick - continuing on with your same behavior will not eradicate the problem and your thinking/behavior will be no different 24 months from now, so I truly recommend attacking the root of the issue at hand. I hope this helps!

Joshua Letourneau
Mg Director, LG & Assoc Search / Talent Strategy
BLOG: http://www.lgexec.com
jletourneau(at)lgexec.com
Comment by Rosie on 25 July 2008:

I work for a recruitment consultancy - a reputable, ethical business by the way - and can assure you that not all search professional act in the more dubious ways you describe.

Some of the gripes you have with recruiters are genuinely ways to help you find the ‘incredible people’ you mention at the end of your article. Asking about the interview process simply allows your recruiter to engage the candidate, give them something to think about etc. Trying to build a relationship with you - i.e. by meeting you - allows them to recognise the right candidates but more importantly helps them to close the right person at the end of the process.

Lastly, your approach seems predicated on a desire for a search professional to make as little effort as possible to recruit. Aside from the fact that agencies aren’t charities (!), only there for you to waste their time, it’s likely that your approach will in the end find you the wrong people, who will leave your business quickly because you didn’t put enough energy into recruiting them to begin with.
Comment by Zeo on 25 July 2008:

Hi,
I agree with you 100%. Let me tell you my experience with one of these agencies based in London. The recruiter calls me up, tells me the job description. All is well, the interview is set up, and I ace it. The salary he said was 26K. Everything is fine, except they offer me much much less. The recruiter goes that he was not aware of what the salary was.

While all of this was happening he was blackmailing me into accepting a verbal offer to him. Basically he was saying “accept and then I will get you the offer, otherwise forget it”. Clearing he was pressurising me and now that I think about it, he made up all the other candidates he told me because it was his @$$ on the line.

Anyway, I turned down the offer as something much better came along. And you know how the agent took it? He replied:

“Thank you for completely wasting mine and their time and for the phone call. Very professional of you.”

I could feel my blood boiling. How dare he says that? I felt like flamming him and his company completly. But I think the better approach would be to send the hireing company this reply, and basically get them to decide his attitude. That would probably hurt the most.

But just on what you have said, really, Recruiter are not your friend. I learned it the cold hard way. But its true. People told me that, but i didnt agree koz hey, they really are friendly but now that I think about it, seems more like they are deceiving, lieing fools only to make a quick buck of the commission.
Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 25 July 2008:

Zeo, you were obviously dealing with a complete *sshole. As you know, there are TONS of them in this business.

There is one thing I’ve witnessed to date in the recruiting profession: IT is the breeding ground of the majority of this garbage. Why? Because, in my estimation, it comes down to the lure of the market’s financial size (Upper mgmt and Third-party Recruiting Managers get starry-eyed when they conceive a market of such proportion).

The result? You have a bunch of young people being recruited in to bang out 120+ calls each day . . . young people who are taught that “Business is War” (a farce!) and that it comes down to “cut throats or have your own cut.”

Furthermore, IT Contracting is even WORSE due to globalization. With recruiting centers being set up in India . . . and waves of H1-b candidates coming en masse to the U.S. . . . our market has been destroyed for home-grown talent. It’s a perfect storm.

Anyway, let me assure all of you that you can find a good recruiter with a good name if you’re willing. Ask for a referral, ask who is respected . . . and whatever you do, DON’T PUT YOUR RESUME OUT THERE AS WALLPAPER FOR EVERY HR REP AND THIRD-PARTY RECRUITER ON THE PLANET! This is what leads to the roaches coming out - use the power of confidentiality and leverage the aura of the ‘passive candidate’. Trust me - it works.
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:

This is a great article. Yes, I hate recruitment agencies. They are scum, totally in agreement. The only real joy I’ve had is applying direct to companies. Recruiment agencies should be disbanded they are paracites and 1000s seem to spring up.

With recruitment agencies they call you up to offer you jobs that no one else wants then they promise to get in touch with you and never do. They are staffed by a load of low grade soft course uni grads who spent their whole time boozing and socialising

I’ve seen preening, pretenious, adverts like this:

——
Graduate IT Developers - ShaftYou Recruitment Ltd.

We are looking for brilliant top notch IT graduates AAA A Levels, preferably a 1st from Oxbridge and 3 years working for a leading company in the role. In return we will ofer you a great salary of £14k a year and a 3 month contract.

Apply now for an immmediate response (honest).

—–

I suppose they get the other £10k fees right. I this day and age I wouldn’t even get out of bed for less than £20k a year. Stuff these wankers.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:

Amazing reading some of these comments. I’ve been in the recruitment industry for 20 years….

Let’s straighten a few myths - I’ve never advertised a ‘fake’ role - If I advertise a fake role, I get 25 people calling / emailing me a day responding…why do I want to waste my time speaking to people when I don’t have a role for them, I have better things to do with my time I assure you than fielding calls from candidates…

I have NEVER approached staff I have placed in other companies, if my client found out I would never get business there again, If I have a successful track record with a client, I want to carry on dealing with them !!! Sure I may approach the candidates to ask him/her if he had any colleagues or friends from within his/her previous employer that might be interested

I have NEVER edited a candidates CV, sure i’ll tell them my opinion on their CV - which they mostly appreciate, but i’ll tell them my opinion and let them change it…

Agencies can be especially useful if you want to keep roles confidential due to a death of an employee, or there being somebody in the client company who is in the ‘departure’ lounge, or if you didn’t want your competitors to know you were expanding….using a ‘Box’ number is ok but it puts candidates off as they think it might be their current employer and also be somebody they don’t want to work for !!!!

Agencies like to visit companies, because they like to get a feel for the ethos of that company, and can paint a picture before they send a candidate to an interview.

If an agency says that the candidate has other roles on the go then fine believe them, what is there to think about that you haven’t thought about already ? but TIME is the biggest killer of all deals in the recruitment industry. In 20 years I have seen so many companies procrastinate and lost a good candidate due to poor recruitment process on the part of the client.

There are excellent recruiters out there as well as some pretty awful ones. - About 10 years ago, I received a perfect CV from a Java expert for a role I had in London, I called and called, left messages, emailed the guy, he kept emailing me asking who it was…I discovered that there was no such address that was written on his CV. And left him a message saying I suspected that he was an agent trying to find out who my client was. He emailed me back warning me that he knew who I was and that I didn’t know him, and some threats about punching me….luckily enough this idiot didn’t realise that I had traced his IP back to his news server and it gave me the name of the ‘big’ IT recruiter he worked for….rang his MD at 8:00 the next morning telling him the story…needless to say they found out who it was and the guy was sacked !!!

Saying that we are all scum, is just a sweeping statement which speaks volumes about yourself….
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:

And I don’t drink alcohol or take drugs either….:)
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:

An increasing number of reputable UK employers are now recruiting people direct. NO RECRUITMENT AGENCIES THANK YOU.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:

What happens when the skills run out ? as has been demonstrated in a vast amount of markets here in the UK ? Putting an advert in such a place as Poland or Romania is not easy, and even then they don’t respond as job changing is seen as a danger and not a lifestyle change as we see it over here ? until you actually talk to these people via search or headhunt they aren’t interested !!!
Comment by Joshua Letourneau on 6 August 2008:

This post has degenerated to one of latent jealousy . . . and my name is right here so I’m not hiding behind any monikers. In the U.S., a top Executive Recruiter (read: we’re talking big-time roles here, not low-level engineers who are a dime a dozen) will earn over $500k USD annually. That’s Big Money, my friends - real Big Money; Money that not everyone likes to see you make. And those that do their job the right way, not playing the games listed in this post . . . earn even more. It’s a virtuous cycle.

If you hate recruitment agents, and if you buy into the discrimatory groupthink (as most people do, whether we’re talking race, religion, creed, etc.), than don’t use a recruiter to help with your hires or to represent you.

It’s as simple as that. What I will tell you is that the best recruiters don’t run in the low-level, early-career circles . . . and there will come a point in everyone’s career where they need a well-connected mover and shaker to navigate their next move. Top-Talent, Upper-Level Executives don’t use job boards . . . and they maintain their confidentiality to the fullest.

As each of you mature in your careers, trust me that you will understand. High-Level Executive Recruitment is the utmost form of management consulting in the world today.

Over and Out.
Comment by Billyboy on 6 August 2008:

Well said Josh…
Comment by Jim X on 6 August 2008:

Only 31% of the UK IT grads found an IT job within a year. In supposed shortage sector. http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/What_do_graduates_do__2008/charts_and_tables_pages/p!eaLjjjF?subject_id=17

Much of the so called skills shortage is down to these stupid recruitment agencies and social engineering. Wy should I have to kiss a recruitment agencies ass just to get a poxy code monkey job that only pays a miserable few grand is only a few month contract and the agency gets massive cut of my salary.

It happened with a member of my family his employers had to pay the recruiter £4000 all for talking to him 3 times on the phone. 1. Hello there what job do you want. 2. You’ve got an interview at dot. 3. Congratulations you’ve got the job. £4k please.

In my neck the woods recruitment agencies are springing up like mushrooms.
Comment by tom on 8 August 2008:

you are all sad dickheads I hope you all lose your fucking jobs and heave to beg for recruiters to interview you, you number crunching nerd fucks
Comment by hunter on 13 August 2008:

I agree. i am only on this bull sh*t website because i am taking computer programing
Comment by ass hole on 13 August 2008:

FUCK!!! SHIT!!! MOTHERFUCKER!!! DAMN!!!
Comment by Gertu on 18 August 2008:

Well, from today I decided to passionately despise the so called recruitment agencies. I know some are ethichal and follows their industry standard and all that, but the one I had to speak to today (I can shout out their name Adept-Recruitment) was overbearing beyond belief. It’s so despairing and really boils my blood to think that these clueless, money driven (most of them tend be from sales background), rude and ignorant people are calling themselves as HR specialists and consultants, in fact they just act like a bunch of pimps with no empathy.
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:

Recruitment agencies are just there to make the commission. They don’t care about the person. Let’s wait for the recession then the jobs to dry up and see how smug they are then.

To be fair there are genuinely top agencies out there who are really good who want to find the best job for you. There are many tin pot places with just a couple of people who call themselves leading.

‘GOD DANM SHIT FUCK MOTHERFUCKER YEAH’ - Asshole
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

This is a reply to and aimed at BillBoy. Mr bill, you are an ass. Your head is in your own ass. You are a walking, drifting peace of ass. Some big shot gun is going to rape that walking ass, probaby did a few times over as well.

You all recruiters are scum of the earth and that is a fact. Wheather you are proud to be the leader of the scum is another matter. Let me punch your lights out by the following FACTS:

a) recruiters advertise fake advertisments. If dont belive it, then you are probably too stupid to realise the fake advertisments your coworkers post and ask you to post. In my experience and quite a lot of experiences (i have done my research and surveys so cork that barking mouth of yours - if you want to bark, first grow out of your milk teeth and grow some real ones!!), there is not a SINGLE one that the job seeker applied to a job and got the one he applied to from these so called job sites. If its by a recruiter, he will take your details, and there will be NO talk on the advertised job, just on the jobs that he has. Hence the advertised one was fake. Admit it or live in a dream world. Your choice!

b) Recruiters edit CVs. If you dont, then you are pretty much stupid. Why? Because if I was the HR and you sent me a cv with their contact number, and if I like the candiate, You and I never met. I will contact the guy my self and there is no court of law where you can prove that you sent me the cv. But I am guessing that you are lieing because if you didnt, you either went out of business or are about to. So listen closely. Recruiters EDIT the cv. They sometimes dont even show the name. They DEFINATLY remove the contact details.

c) You dont hire me. The company does. So dont be try to be smart by going to the company for the welfare of the suitable candidate. The company approaches you for some cvs, you pass them on and they decide which ones they wont not you. The amount of times wiered ass agencies did not like the candiate and the candidate then went up to the company and the situation was different. They infact had hired him but the agency did not forward him the offer as an issue had arrisn with recruiter agency. You do that, and every other recruiter does that. Deniying that denys your very existance because what I have described you is the work ethics and best practices of recruiters. If you are honest, well be prepared to run out of business.

Just my two cents
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

Your spelling is dreadful, i’m not surprised you can’t find a job…a recruiter looking at your CV would HAVE to edit it !! If I was an employer looking at your CV, i’d either think you don’t know how to use a spell checker, or you just never bothered at school…

Peace should be spelt ‘piece’
Definatly should be spelt ‘definitely’
Deniying should be spelt ‘denying’
lieing should be spelt ‘lying’

There you go, i’m afraid your two cents wasn’t even worth 1 Zimbabwean Dollar, but as I have just helped you with your English for free proves us recruiters can’t all be bad…
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

My self is actually one word ‘myself’
wont does contain an apostrophe ‘won’t’ or you could have said ‘will not’
Infact is actually two words ‘in fact’
arrisn, I think you meant to ‘arisen’
denys, again I think you meant ‘denies’
existance is ‘existence’

Jesus your English is appalling, i’d run a mile if your CV came in to my agency !!! do you understand why agencies don’t like you ?
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:

If you can find companies and apply direct. Tip of the day make sure your CV has the right spelling and does not contain any expletives.
Comment by Kimberly on 21 August 2008:

Altaf Bhai thanks for putting your name; as you do not like agencies and clearly there is no use for us to work together. I have 2 people of your name on our database i will call both and get you removed from one of the UKs largest recruitment databased. Thanks for your feedback your job hunt just got harder. ps most of the managers i work with value mu opinion so if they ask my consultant services i will be sure to pass them this blog.
Comment by Venture Capitalise on 21 August 2008:

Hey, Nick - you’ve outdone yourself here. From your LinkedIn profile, I can see you’re the following:

a. CEO & Founder at fav.or.it (10/07 - Present)
b. Co-Founder at Assembleron Limited (4/2007 - Present)

We’d rather invest in an “A-team” with a B-product than a “B-team” with an A-product. And what you’ve shown me here is that you have a hard time justifying an investment in building an A-team. Ironically, this is where I’d want my money (and my investors’ money) spent.

Where would you rather spend our money, Nick? Your post here, and the decision to make it public, is a comedy of errors. Let’s hope you don’t try to come in and pitch our mgmt team for capital.
Comment by Jim X on 21 August 2008:

Kimberly don’t get all high and mighty. This is the probelm with recruiters they seem to feel they have some devine power to accpet or reject people.

It is the company that employs you not the agency. Whenever I can I apply direct to companies / orgs so fuck you!
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

Point taken Jim…

But we do also advise you on your CV, questions to ask at interview, handling counter offers (would you Jim for example accept a counter offer ??), assisting in resignation letters, negotiating a higher salary for you (a lot of people don’t know the range of salary to ask for especially as some jobs don’t advertise the salary), giving you free legal advice on your contracts of employment. Remember some people haven’t changed jobs for 15 years and might need some help…

I’ll give you an example…If you go for a job and they ask you what salary you were looking for most people say well i’m looking for £2k increase or they name a figure…I always tell my candidates never to say a figure, WHY ? Beacuse if you go along for a job and say ‘well Mr/Mrs Employer I feel sure that if you like me, you’ll make me an offer of whatever you feel i’m worth. I’ve had a lot of people thank me for that small piece of advice, one guy did this and got offered £8K more than he would have asked for.

The other reason that employers will use agencies is that they get 500 CV’s to sift through from an ad response, and for an HR Manager, how much does it cost them in their own management time to go through that many CV’s, how much does it cost somebody to respond to all the graduates who have no experience but think after reading one copy of What Computing they are a 3rd Line Support Specialist ? how many of those who on paper look good but are actually not right in person ? and how many of those candidates have LIED on their CV ? How many of those candidates who have a poor CV might actually fit into the team ? is that person ambitious or a plodder ?

A lot of you really don’t know what is involved…!!
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

Lol bill boy thank you for entertaining me! First of this isnt a spelling competition. Plus clearly you have no substance to support your thoughts, you simply pick my spellings which is not even close to the topic at hand.

BTW, you made an assumption that I do not have a job. On the contrary I am a highly paid senior developer.

lol @ Kimberly. Why do you guyz think I am looking for a job? lolz I am simply sharing my experiences. And as Mr. Jim X so rightly put it that it is the company that hires not you, so why dont you simply fuck of. Infact Kimberly, I know who you are, and contact your Manager for removing me from the system without any reason. FUCK YOU!

BTW whoever has spelling mistakes on a CV is an idiot in the first place. Why? because every decent document system has a spell checker. And for the love of God, I am not looking for a job. Yes please remove me from your system.

BTW, altaf bhai is not even a name, if your system picked it up then what can I say, the ppl who put it in their must be idiots too so I suggest you sack them and put some real people in. Dont intemidate me with your hypothetically artificially inflated database of workforce.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

And alot of you recruiters live in a dream world.

Lol! Bill boy will you just shut up!. Agents dont help, they simply fuck up the candidate. All the information on wht to do, on how to negotiate, you can get from the internet. Welcome to the free world my friend.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

And Mr bill. Do you think all the candidate are idiots. Why do you think 9 out of 10 people say agents are the scum of the earth. Beacuase maby 70% really are, putting a bad name for decent ones such as you, so that makes the total figure of ‘bad agents’ around 95%.

Everyone hates you agents because they lie, deceive, cheat, manipulate.
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

You help somebody, tell them where they are going wrong and they still spell badly !!!

Intemidate is actually ‘intimidate’
Beacuase is actually ‘because’
wht is spelt ‘what’

The stupid thing is all the Indian guys i’ve placed this year have been brilliant guys….you don’t do your country any justice at all…
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

Highly paid Senior Developer ?? what skills do you have ??
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

“The stupid thing is all the Indian guys i’ve placed this year have been brilliant guys….you don’t do your country any justice at all…”

WTF has that to do with anything????
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

Altaf Bhai is a hero in Karachi !!!
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

Apologies I called you Indian….You’re actually from Pakistan, I haven’t placed any from there this year…
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

Look. Some people are bad at giving tests, yet they are brillian in their field. I know alot of people who are complete gurus and geeks in programming yet they cannot pass a single certification or programming related exam. Why? Because they are not good test takers.

Same goes for guys with appititude tests. Same goes for spellings. While I understand where you are comming from, but seriously, my spellings have nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

How would you know I am from Pakistan? India has about a billion people. So if you are basing your assumpting on my name being southasian, i could be from any where in that region. But what difference does that make? Are you saying you acctually think twice before forwarding their cv if they have south asian origions???
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

lolz! @ “Altaf Bhai is a hero in Karachi !!!”

Sorry I didnt read that post before. hahahaahhaha omg i cant stop laughing.

Please seriously, if you are pakistani then either you like altaf or you dont. Altaf is certainly NOT a hero in karachi. Infact he probably is the biggest coword in the history of man kind by hiding himself somewhere in london. lolz….but its good to know that you know about politics…

btw this still does not mean I am from pakistan, I too have a good eye on politics…:)
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

For your first point, that’s what we help candidates do if they aren’t good at tests we can help them to become better…I don’t care where they are from, if they want sponsorship and have good skills, and they need help in finding a better opportunity, then we’ll try and help them, it’s as simple as that, i’ve placed 41 people this year from all over the world in the UK/Middle East and Europe, from the Philippines, India, Romania, Poland, South Africa, Zimbabwe….it makes no difference if they want my help i’ll try my best for them. If it was a fresh graduate wanting £70,000 a year as a starting salary, i’d tell him/her to reappraise his/her ambitions or take up a role in close protection in the Helmand Province, If it was a guy/girl wanting to leave his/her job just because he/she wanted more money then i’d tell him to go back and ask his current boss for a payrise, if then he didn’t get it i’d try find him/her something or recommend he/she finds a role in contracting…
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

Well Bill boy I sincerly appologize for my rant on you. Clearly you are the honest and decent agent. But its just that there are so many bad agents. I have a decent experience so I have been through alot of agents, and alot of my coworkers share the same experiences.

It seems the agent tries to be your best friend. They will seem they are honestly helping you but in the end you find out that they did not pass on the offer letter or some other shit happened. And some agents that do not forward their cv because they think you wont fit in the company when clearly it is not their decision to make. With this kind of experiences, its not easy to trust another.
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

The thing is only a person from Pakistan would know that Altaf Bhai is a coward and hiding in London….it certainly hasn’t appeared in any of the British papers !!! Only the Pakistan Tribune and Pakistan Uncut, Insaf.PK seem to mention anything like this…so you ARE a Pakistani….
Comment by Billyboy on 21 August 2008:

I can understand what you are saying….quite a few are awful, most are reasonably good, a few are exceptional….
Comment by Altaf Bhai on 21 August 2008:

well you do have a point! so which part are you from then? no specifics required just the city would do
Comment by Bilawal on 21 August 2008:

Oye, Altaf hussain kisi kutay ka puter hay. Us ki ma ki ankh.
Comment by Ollie C on 26 August 2008:

Good article, largely true (and made me smile) although I have now got 2 agencies who on the whole don’t do the above things and are decent people to deal with (this is now my entrace criteria and I have a strike and your out rule, although dealing with the Agencies you no longer want to work with can be a pain).

One is London based and the other (better one) is Bristol based (main offices are in Oxfordshire). We also use the Zend Framework heavily and finding good ZF people through recruiters is now a lot easier than it was a year or so ago…
Comment by ANON on 14 October 2008:

“And they are all scum…” That about sums YOU up as a person.
Comment by Gavin Barnard on 14 October 2008:

As a recruiter who has worked as an agency recruiter and an onsite recrutier for HP, Dell and now VMware i would agree with most of what Steve is saying about agency recruitment. However i would not agree with the statement about being scum. Do not tar us all with the same brush. I and many recruiters like me are ‘professional career recruiters’ with many years experience in customer satisfaction and results in placing quality candidates. My placeement tally in 2008 alone is 119 people into the business and not one has left because i did my job correctly and in a professional manner. If you want some proof that there are good recruiters out there then read my linked in profile. Steve if you ever want to speak to a good recruiter, give me a call and ill explain to you how REAL recruitment is done by some of us.

Regards
Gavin
Comment by Gavin Barnard on 14 October 2008:

Nick.
Comment by Gied on 14 October 2008:

Nick,

Lighten up mate, you must have had a really bad day when you wrote this. First of all, you have yourself to blame entirely. Clearly you have no idea how to select a good recruiter in the first place.

Nick, you strike me as the kind of guy that, if in need of let’s say some serious heart surgery, would start qualifying the surgeon by asking “how much are you charging mate? Oh no no that much? I’d better go find a cheaper one”. You clearly see a recruitment service as a commodity.

Personally, the questions I’d ask would be around their track record and success rate - just like the quality of the surgery is vital to your health, so is the quality of the recruiter you work with to attract A-players to your firm. You are clearly working with dozens of recruiters, again they’re clearly a commodity to you. WRONG! If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys, and clearly you have a lot of monkeys on your back.

Until you fully understand and appreciate the value of a relationship based on mutual commitment between a client and recruiter, you will keep on repeating your previous experiences. And that’s all in your own hands. Don’t knock my profession because you refuse to look inwards and correct your incompetence and inadequacy in this matter. That’s the easy way out, unfair, and I take offense to that.

Gied
Pingback by 10 REASONS WHY NICK HATES RECRUITMENT AGENTS « Job Blog NI on 14 October 2008:

[...] http://www.nickhalstead.com/2008/07/01/10-reasons-why-i-hate-recruitment-agents/ [...]
Comment by Scott Bod on 15 October 2008:

I support BillyBoy 100%

Instead of taking a professional call from a professional organisation you start the call Mr Client with a bad attitude and a bunch of baggage.

Please do not tar us all with the same brush - Aggressive agencies are well known and do no repeat business, agencies like mine have longstanding relationships with global and local clients based on mutual trust (meeting each other for a start)- Would you spend £9000 with someone you had never met? Not on your life!

I urge you to take the advice of the professional recruiters, who obviously care enough to read these forums, follow blogs on their industry and interact with their clients and candidates, and seek a strong relationship with a couple of reputable agencies, meet the key players, agree a fee which works for you both, and politley advise other agencies that you have a supplier list which you are currently happy with and should that situation change you will advise them to apply to you then.

Please be as professional as you would like us to be in return.

Many thanks.
Comment by Julie-Ann on 15 October 2008:

Hi,

Just to let you all know about A COMPLETLEY DIFFERENT online employment business called http://www.zenrec.net

Zenrec.net can operates in the UK and Ireland.

Whats different?
1. We work for a small flat fee starting as little as £242
2. We advertise job vacancies on 24+ job boards
3. We give all our clients 24/7 uncensored access to their privat recruitment application account
4. We dont edit any CVs - we let our clients see CVs exactly as they are submitted with name and number etc
5. We proctive search up to 5 big Online CV databases
6. Our clients can hire unlimited people from the one job ad at no extra cost
7. We let our clients keep all the CVs for future reference at no extra cost
8. We look after everything for our clients amd reduce adminstration and unnecessary phone calls by 50% or more
9. If we cannot source candidates from online resources we manage your contact with recruitment agencies at no extra cost
10. We are human and nice

For more information on our super cool recruitment solution - CREATED BY AN EMPLOYER FOR AN EMPLOYER!

Call 0800 072 0261 or +442838367610 or visit http://www.zenrec.net
Comment by Billyboy on 15 October 2008:

No skill needed at all in doing this, it simply is matching a CV to a job spec, rather than matching an opportunity to a real person….anybody can sling CV’s at at a job spec, if you send enough a few might stick….and some of the best candidates aren’t always registered/looking unless an opportunity is put to them by direct contact…’we look after everything for our clients’ does that include testing them ? finding out what their current employer would say when they hand their notice in ? checking references ? writing letters of resignation for them ? findout out exactly what the best opportunity is for them ?…..
‘We don’t edit Cv’s’ - good, but how do you know a potentially excellent candidate might just not be great at writing CV’s ? Or how do you know those who do write good CV’s aren’t very good in person at all ?…
Cut price CV shuffling service will give cut price results….
Comment by Julie-Ann on 15 October 2008:

Hi Billyboy,

You dont need to be a rocket scientist to do recruitment - there is no “secret” skill. I dont claim to be a recruitment genius - all I claim is that I have created a simple recruitment process for employers who dont want all the recruitment smoke and mirrors. Zenrec.net is a clear and transparent recruitment solution, we dont charge thousands, because what we do is simple and some employers want it that way, especially in this economic climate.

Our service starts at £242 - but we can easily build a tailor made recruitment solution to fit the needs of any employer. We have attracted managers into our company from many of the worlds leading recruitment agencies. The reason we are attracting such high quality dynamic people is because they can see the value in what we are doing and how we appeal to the wider audience of employers.

Our recruitment service does include testing and checking references. We provide candidates with information on how to promote themselves and how to write CVs but we do not actively to do on their behalf.

Different strokes for different folks…

http://www.zenrec.net is a unique recruitment solution that appeals to most employers as it was created by an employer for employers, we have listened to the real needs of employers and provided a service that employers want - not one dictated by the recruitment agency industry.
Comment by Harry on 15 October 2008:

Nick,

I work in IT and think that I can put you right on a couple of points. My brother works in recruitment and he is not a “scum bag”.

1. Why would you NOT want to meet someone who is going to “sell” your business to potential candidates? That is MADNESS! Perhaps if you met the recruiter you would get a good service and they would get a clear understanding of who you are looking for?

2. Why would a recruiter want to give you the personal details of a candidate? Why would you need them until you wanted to offer them the job? Your point makes no sense Nick.

3. Recruiters are all SCUM? Nick, that’s a very harsh comment. I’m sure they are just trying to do a job. You are clearly very simple and uneducated if all you can do is insult people in this way.

The simple solution Nick is to just stop using them if you don’t like the service.
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

I am a Recruiter and Account Manager at SANS and while some third tier companies (probably the ones that you worked with) are pretty bad, there are a lot of top tier firms, like SANS (shameless plug), that are actually pretty solid.

1. Asking the interview process is not to get an edge on the interview, it’s to let the candidate know, yes you will have one face to face or two face to face or three face to face interviews. Nothing more. Interview questions (by a top tier firm) will not be asked or given to the candidate for that matter, as you said, if they have to prep for the interview then they don’t really fit any way and it would be a waste of your, their and my time to set up an interview.

2. If I call you then it’s not to tell you nothing it would be to schedule and / or confirm an interview. I don’t ask for face to face meetings unless we’ve closed a deal and I’ve made money with you.

3/4. Editing a candidate’s Resume…the only editing at my firm and a lot of other top tier firms would be cosmetic, as in, font, space and / or the removal of tables. Any other changes would are unacceptable.

5. Lying…? Seriously, what agencies have you been working with?
Why lie if it would be found out later. We won’t risk the offer being rescinded after background check with a lie. Our clients are too important to us. They’re our bread and butter.

6. Imaginary Companies…Please refer to #5.

7. Spam, I’m sorry to hear that. Admittedly we send “mass emails” to our candidates when companies/clients call us with new job specs, and say that we have a day to get them a new hire, but we absolutely do not spam clients. That’s a golden rule. We don’t even share client information with our recruiters.

8. Contact info…Once we have a contract in place and a long enough work history, sharing contact info is never an issue, you’ll see what we see. However, new clients do not get all candidate info. Full names are always provided, new client or not, and upon request for an interview contact info would also be shared.

9. Another golden rule, we don’t recruit from clients ever.

10. We’re all Scum, no reply necessary.
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

oh and btw the way the jobs are dried up, ppl have been laid off and it’s not funny, JIM X!

I have a bunch of friends, that I’ve helped find jobs and that I’ve worked with in the past in efforts to help them find jobs and now (most with families to feed, mortgages to pay, and etc.) it’s tough for them. Poking fun at other’s misfortune is wrong. Namely Jim X. Recruiters aren’t affected b/c they go where the money is. So you’re making fun of your colleagues not recruiters. Please be more mindful.

This is what I’m seeing lately…

“David,

Do you have anything for me, you used to send me stuff but not lately!”

My answer to him was I don’t have any thing right now, but I’ll keep you posted.

Do you think that’s laughable Jim X?

The funny thing Jim X is that my job is safe and yours may not be, Or is that funny JIM X?
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

One more thing JIM X…we get more money by getting you more money b/c our fees are 15% - 30%, depending on the client, of your gross.

I.E.:
Candidate A get’s and accepts a 100k base salary offer, Agency receives 15k - 30k from the client.

Candidate B get’s and accepts a 200k base salary offer, Agency recieves 30k - 60k from the client.

Do you notice a pattern here? We try and make you more money so that we may earn more money.

BTW - you enter your resume directly to a company, they interview you and offer you a base salary of 90k when you could of really been earning 110k, great going genius.

Agencies know the min. and max. salary being offered and we go for the gusto to make our candidates more. (Of course that also depends on other factors like what you’re currently earning and your level of expertise, work involved and etc.)
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

Brian K. Jones. A lot of companies don’t want to see contractors b/c a lot of contractors have short stints on their resume and ideally an employer wants someone who doesn’t get bored quickly. Some (not all) are also willing to move from a project before it’s complete, to earn more money some where else which means that it’s a gamble for the employer to hire him/her. Other reasons may include visa status, quality of work and etc. Larger firms generally tend to stay away from contractors unless they are specifically hiring a consultant. Some will make an exception if the contractor has been working on contract for over two years at each company that they’ve worked.
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

TYT - There are a lot of agencies (including the one I work for) that were started and run by IT people for IT people. Nearly 90% of our staff have worked in IT. We know our stuff.
Comment by David Leak on 15 October 2008:

Last rant,

Tom you are just as bad as every one else. Why would you wish that people lost their jobs? What’s wrong with you people? People need jobs to sustain life.
Comment by Eric on 15 October 2008:

FYI, I work in Finance and Accounting recruiting in the NYC area and almost all of my colleagues throughout my career have been through either the public accounting world or corporate finance.

Not to say there aren’t a bunch of scum bags out there.
Comment by David Jephcott on 16 October 2008:

Within the realms of recruitment, as in life, there are scumbags on boths side of the recruiter/client divide.

You must never forget that recruiters are acting on behalf of the candidate as well as the client, although judging by the original post to this thread, the candidates welfare in all of this seems to have been totally ignored by Nick. Its not all about “what you want” you know.

Recruiters should NEVER be dishonest, but then neither should CLients who hire the supplied candidates behind recruiters backs, fiddle the salry offer to reduce payment to the recruiter, not pay the recruiters bills etc.

Whilst I cannot condone the underhand methods obviously used by some recruiters in this case, I pity those actually working with Nick. To tar all agencies with a “once size fits all” approach is just silly, and smacks just a little of egomania!
Comment by SANJAY PRASHER on 3 November 2008:

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Comment by Kaij on 21 November 2008:

Прикольно, такое не часто прочитаешь. Не всякий дурак до такого додумается. Да если бы это было кому-нибудь интересно, наверное было бы больше комментариев.
Comment by Jay O'Hara on 22 December 2008:

I want to know what you have against contractors wishing to go permanent at your company?

I have contracted for over 5 years mainly to get the experience I need and not get pigeonholed into doing one job.

I think the mindset you have on this issue is extremely annoying as you would never hire me, because I have contracted in the past.

tut tut - pity

And before you reply with a ‘you have the wrong attitude’ garb - please don’t tar us all with the same brush!
Comment by Darren Grady on 30 December 2008:

I was a recruitment consultant for almost 10 years and I have to say, I never fully enjoyed the role. The problem is that there are a huge number of agencies out there and competition is fierce, nay ‘cut throat’.

I lost count of the number of times I had another agency try and ‘get one over on me’ by using underhand tatics and by doing this, they were playing the candidate off against another agency.
At the end of the day, the candidate just wants a job and they are not bothered who places them in the role as long as it’s done.

Unfortunatley, this is a short sighted view as those agencies who conduct themselves in this way will use this approach with other candidates and very soon you will find that your calls are taking longer to be returned.
If ever again.

Whenever I registered candidates, I would always ask “What agencies are you registered with?” to which the candidate would reel off a long list. I would then ask “And which ones are returning your calls?”.

Cue long silence.

The key problem it seems is that consultants are setting themselves up for a fall from the start in that they over promise and thus, under deliver. When a candidate would ask if I would get them their dream job I would always respond with No!
My response was that I would promise that I would keep regular contact via phone/e-mail. Activley speak with employers regarding their cv and do my utmost to secure them an interview.
Ironically, they were most appreciative to my candid honesty and this was a good platform to build mutual trust and respect.

Despite being out of the industry (3months and counting) I can still spot a recruitment consultant at 50 yards, something I am neither proud nor ashamed of but I am glad to be out of the industry. I was made redundant this year and used it as a springboard to make a career change, something that in hindsight, I should have doen a number of years ago. Not all agencies are bad in the same way that not all candidates are good but I grew tired of defending my profession as everyone always had a story to say about agencies and it was always a negitive one.

My advice is to use a referal from someone who has had a positive experience with that agency, it’s not foolproof but it’s a start.

A friend of mine, a partner in a law firm ironically calls agencies a necessary evil which still makes me smile when I think about it.

Agencies are the new estate agents (or wheel clampers) and the bad are outweighing the good. The REC needs to take a long hard look at the profession and stringent regulations need to be put in place to moniter any ill practice. When I was made redundant this year, I went to see an agency, I won’t name them but they are located near Farringdon tube and it was a complete waste of time. The consultant was hungover (he admitted it) and spent the whole interview going through a Janet and John tick box of what my requirements where.
The job I had specifically gone in to register for clearly had been filled (or did not exist) and as I left, I knew that I would never hear from that agency again. Not that I was bothered!

Anyway, that’s enough from me but just remember, there are no bad agencies, just bad consultants.

Regards,

Darren
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 3 January 2009:

I personally cannot stand most agencies, for all of the treasons above. Since when did having or trying to get a job become a selling exercise for some ponce in a striped suit.

Mind you thats what you get when all the real jobs have been sold overseas, with just crap left here managed by even crappier agencies. The top place for programmers in the Wrold is BANGA-FLIPPIN-LORE, yes F***ing India again.

It should be the U.K !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so why isn’t it, maybe the Indians are quite happy earning a one tenth of our salary thats why. A bowl of rice and a dirty materess to sleep on and they’re quite happy !

This will only get worse with more EU intergration, which we should come out of without any further delay. The E.U is behind all this recruitment rubbish and thats what it is rubbish, lets make every nation dependent on every other nation. Thats why we have so many agencies, doing poncy “so called” recruitment jobs. load of bollocks the lot of it.

Wanna sign my petition about this at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk
just type in ITRECRUITMENT

These outfits should be banned and em[plyers taught how to select candidates themselves, for gods sake it is not that hard. A strategically shaved monkey in a suit could do it.

Bloody Annoyed - JW
Comment by JA on 8 January 2009:

Hi Nick,

I am a recruiter by profession and I sympathize with you on what you had to go through but I would disagree that all are like that.

1. You are absolutely right that”you only know who the right fit is for your environment and the role” but unless you let your recruiting agency know your expectations, how will they be able to find you someone.

2. As to “come and meet you” , this is for only one purpose. All the agencies are in the sales business to both clients and candidates. If I as a recruiter, don’t know about the environment and people I am recruiting for , how do you expect me to find the perfect person to fit the shoes.

3. If somebody is rejigging the resumes, that is unethical. I would definitely edit the resume to add my company’s name so that it is easily recognizable. The contact details of a candidate is removed to maintain confidentiality. I have come across couple of such cases, where the clients have gone forward and contacted the candidates directly and I was not kept in the loop.

4. You as a client can lay down the rules and ask the agency to work accordingly. You must understand that you can’t get a candidate with black eyes, pink ears and green nose but at the same time the agencies try there best to find you a candidate that will come close to the requirements.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 8 January 2009:

Annoyingly I find that most recruitment agencies are really that good at selling as they would like to believe. most of them are pants when it comes to selling.

An example of this happened at Fuel Recruitment the other other day I was up for a “Network Infrastructure Technicians” position at al ocal company.

I was telephoned later on to be told that they “Wanted someone who was green and with no experience whatsoever”, even though I would have done the job for the same money and have the experience to go with it.

This sort ofthing really annoys me because clearly the agency had not read what the client was looking for, otherwise they would not have phoned me at all.

The need agencies should be eliminated, there is no need for these parasites, they remind me very much of estate agents. A bunch of people who serve no useful purpose but still get paid for it.

The other thing I find sick is that some of thse c*nts advertise and pretend not to be agencies at all.

Nanotech are good example of this. they will advertise a job usually on a dozen or more websites usually as an “Employer”.

A lot of job board type websites do have a feature where you can advertise a job as an agency of as an employer.

I have fallen for this one too and it should be written into the fraud act without delay because that’s exactly what it is. Making a claim which is knowingly untrue, in order to obtain applicants.

These bas*ards ought to be regulated or have to have a licence to operate or prove in some other way that they are otherwise legitimate, perhaps by the number of people place in the last 3 months or something.

That would put most of them out of business, thank Christ
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 8 January 2009:

Beware also of the S3 group, going under various banners. This group is soley responsible for runing the I.T market as a whole.

It contains at the last count 12 individual recruitment companies including Pathway, Progressive, Computer Futures, Huxley etc.

what they do not tell the client is that they are all acting together as a group, so the client thinks he or she is dealing with 12 independent companies, when in fact he is dealing with a conglomerate.

Think about 12 companies 3 CV’s per position per candidate = 36 CV’s per position per candidate.

So the little guy down the road, who is probably quite good does not stand a chance at all. The playing field definately is not level. The monopolies and mergers commission should investigate this without delay.

It is surprising how many of them manage to pay the rent on their offices, since they never seem to place anyone.
Comment by Elmer Fitzpatrick on 8 January 2009:

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Comment by Mae Morrow on 10 January 2009:

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Comment by Darren Grady on 10 January 2009:

With response to JA’s comment I sympathise as it sounds like you are that rare breed who act in a professional, ethical and most importantly, honest way of working. Alas, you are in the minority as this is the very basis as to why this web blog has been created. One feels that the chances of a blog being created entitled ‘Why I LOVE Recruitment Agents’ is in all reality a non starter.

I contacted the REC with my concerns about how the majority of agencies operate in a non appropriate manner (and it is alas the majority) and what the REC could and would do to ‘police’ these agencies. I have yet to receive a response but in the interim, I would like to know what the REC actually does? I know what they are about from when they were FRES and what they stand for ect but can anyone tell me what they actually do except invite you to a few breakfast seminars and give you a nice sky blue sticker to put on your door.

It needs sorting, it really does.

Regards,

Darren
Comment by John on 10 January 2009:

Hi Darren

I agree with you exactly which is why I created a petition on the No. 10’s website. I hope one day that this issue will be looked at.
The petition if you are interested can be found at

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk

when you are on their site just browse the petitions or enter the word “ITRECRUITMENT”

Cheers John
Comment by Darren Grady on 11 January 2009:

Hi John,

That is definitley a step in the right direction although alas with the current economic climate one can’t help but feel that Downing St may have to prioritise. That said, Have you made the REC aware of the petition as it’s an excellent idea and it does come under their immediate remit and as mentioned in my earlier post, they (REC) receive enough financial clout via their annual subscriptions so the fact that they have yet to police it really does say it all.
I am not using this as a platform to publically ‘bash’ the REC but I would welcome some idea as to what they tangibly do?

Perhaps if recruitment companies suspended their subscriptions for the forthcoming year it may strike a stronger message. Candidates are not interested as to what the REC stand for and do, all they want is a job. I know my point is now wavering towards the inevitable ‘if you can’t beat em, join em’ territory but that is just one of the dangers of being in the minority.

I did comtemplate writing to Professional Recruiter but the organisations to read and subscribe to this publication are highly likely to be the god and fair minded and it would be reaching the non target audience.

Regards

Darren
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 11 January 2009:

Hi Darren

I have not told tghe REC, to be honest I did not even know what oer who it or they were until I read your last post. I had heard of FRES though. I would be happy for you to make the REC aware of the petition. It would probably sound better coming from someone OTHER that the petition creator. If you think about it this makes sense and the word spreads virally. If it spreads far enough we might be able to get it further up the PM’s agenda, although he might be pre-occupied at the present. He might take note of what 500-600 people are saying in reltion to this problem. Currently we only have 7 signatories at present. Mr Brooon aint going to listen to 7 - we need a few more.

Thanks

John
Comment by Amy on 19 January 2009:

Nick,

Love what you had to say. I’m a technical recruiter (polymer scientist) and own a recruiting firm. Unfortunately this business attracts a lot of shady sales folks. That’s because there is a ton of money to be made. Many of these recruiters make over a million dollars a year! And it doesn’t require a degree to do it.

I don’t behave like this. It’s not how I do business. Contact me if you would ever like to discuss.

Salut!

Amy
Comment by deedledum on 19 January 2009:

Interesting….Mr Halstead boasts he has recruited at all levels…and yet an advert he has put out recently shows he hasn’t really learned much in recruitment…

Company fav.or.it
Location Reading, UK
Title Administration Guru
Summary We are on the recruitment trail again! (did they sack the last one or was the last person wrongly laid off?) We are looking for an administration guru who hopefully has some good core programming skills as well. (so in otherwords they want to pay somebody the salary of an ’systems administrator’ who has the technical skills of a Senior Developer…ok) As fav.or.it expands (or as it won’t as it is seeking more funding) we need someone who can look after all the server infrastructure and keep things running smoothly (in other words you’re on your own, we are going to watch our backs). (in otherwords somebody who can do the jobs of 3 people) This is a fantastic opportunity to get involved in a company that is using cutting edge web technologies and is expanding rapidly. (usual cliches - it says nothing about the working environment ? is it a borrowed warehouse with leaks in the roof ?)

Essential Skills

Linux Systems administration
Apache Administration
MySQL Administration
Desired skills

Knowledge of VMware Server and other VMware technologies
Experience in any of the following MRTG, PRTG, Cacti
Perl/PHP/Ruby Scripting
Windows Server 2003 administration
Location: Reading

Salary based upon experience (No fringe benefits ?) so no salary stated means we’re embarrassed as it is so low ?)
Comment by jeremy lashway on 3 February 2009:

temp agencies are a loopholes for large companies to devoid you of rights at a cost or profit to these temp agencies. they pay the agencies to devoid you of any legal rights you should certainly have by labeling you temporary expendable SLAVE that will take it like a slut!!!
Comment by Peter on 6 February 2009:

I agree Temp agencies can suck but what the hell is wrong with being a contractor anyway? Not hiring anyone who’s been a contactor? How biased and illogical is that? That’t the only jobs available since Corporate America outsourced, downsized and projectized everything. One does what one needs to do to survive. Experience and references should carry more weight than anything. Contractorrs can be more industrious than employees. I judge based on the person. Good Luck.
Comment by Mr. X on 13 February 2009:

This article is typical or a narrow minded manager who has zero understanding of what goes into recruiting or why recruiting agencies exist.

Everyone hates the middle man, everyone wants to cut out the middle man but truth be told the middle man would not exist if there was no need. The middle man makes a market efficient, it is cheaper to pay the middle man to recruit a candidate then it is to have an in house team that you have to pay salaries, benefits, training costs, overhead etc.

The other thing that irritiates me is the attitude of contractors - “recruitment agencies take too much money” - the reality is a lot of the contract jobs would not exist and would not be available to contractors if it was not for recruiters.

As far as the attitude of not preparing people or giving details to the recruiting agencies - all that does is save both sides a lot of time and effort. The more detail you provide a recruiter with the greater the chances are that they will find the right fit for your need without wasting large amounts of time and money.
Comment by John on 13 February 2009:

Hello Mr X,

The question about your argument is that I feel there would be no need for recruiters at all if the employers knew how to recruit for themselves and not sit around in ivory towers like a lot of them do.

Years ago the situation was never like this and these parasitical people did not exist in the quantity the do today. It does not matter how much detail you provide that it totally irrelevant. It is a well known fact that most of the big agencies work as one company called “The S3 Group” and therefore have an unfair advantage. This is a fact I have researched myself but one the the agencies do not blatantly advertise and we know why not don’t we?

The “need” as you put it has been created because employers do not seem to like recruiting for themselves. The truth of the matter is that there are too many agencies, millions of candidates and too few real jobs. If you did a survey I bet you would find more short term contract work than you would permanent work. The simple truth is that all the I.T jobs have been sold to places like Bangalore, India which is now one of the top computer programming centres on the planet. Not because it’s good but because it’s cheap.

Well if you pay peanuts then you will undoubtedly get monkeys, tell me why should I be forced through Government incompetence to look for work in another country. I would like to see proper jobs return to the UK for one and employers taught how to employ people properly.

We would not need these parasite recruitment agencies, with their sharp salesmen in stripy suits and shiny shoes then. in my opinion they are no better than estate agents.

I do not and never have believed in the global market and current evidence going on behind the scenes in Brussels (read the newspapers) proves that it is in a mess and it is cracking up. Its been going on since Thatcher and the 80’s when everything was sold off. It certainly is not new.

Having a job is NOT I repeat NOT a selling opportunity for some other idiot in a suit who knows nothing about the job, has never done the job and probably could not do the job either.

Many agencies operate a “Spray & Pray” attitude, in other words throw enough C.V’s at an employer hoping one will stick. The other tack they employ is to pick up “Buzz Words” on a CV to match a person to a job.

Both of these methods are rubbish. it is up to the employer to interview candidates that he or she thinks can possibly do the job in hand nobody else should be involved.

After all the candidate is not going to be working for the recruitment company are they ? So therefore anything the recruitment company may say to an employer about a candidate is purely an opinion and carries no weight at all.

It is ONLY the potential employers opinion that matters nobody elses at all.
Comment by Sydney IT Recruiter on 14 February 2009:

I’m in the recruitment industry, and I have an IT background, I hold IT Industry certifications and know I.T.
There may be a lot of junk agencies (Consultants) out there as well as alot of rubish Clients and Candidates. Bottom line, some companies are happy with agencies and some don’t have the budget for it and they can also be unethical and cheap.
How is this for a joke, a client is looking for a skilled professional, and holds on to their resume until the T&C are expired only to contact them themselves so they try to avoid recruitmet fees (sad).

A candidate is looking for work but your client has “special” requirements, out of 100 applicants 1 person will get the job and sometimes some candidates as soon as you mention the company, try to apply themselves direct (sad).
My clients and candidates are very happy with what I provide for them.

1.Qualify your clients and don’t waste time with those who bitch like you, who ever you are.
2.Screen and shortlist the right candidate, you might know what you are doing Perl, Python, .NET, C# whatever.
BUT, have you ever thought that you may have the Technical skills but not the right personality? or maybe you are just no what they are looking for?
I think it is disgusting the way you people stereotype recruiters, especially when you are all the first ones to jump up and down when you feel stereotyped or discriminated against.
Comment by Rob on 20 February 2009:

I would just like to point out that most recruiting managers are worse than the consultants when it comes to manners.
Comment by Danny on 22 February 2009:

I completly agree with the guy above,

Sorry Nick but you have shown yourself to be like most other hiring managers…Twats.

At least consultants arnt sad enough to write some sneak little bitching website about managers.

If you got something to say at least say to there face.
Comment by John on 22 February 2009:

The Government has recently indicated that it intends to get the help of private I.T recruitment companies, as the Job Centres don’t work anymore.

I can’t see the point of this it will not alter the numbers in the equation in the slightest,all it will do is lump all of the recruitment folk together, be it Government or privately run.

Won’t make a jot of difference,there will still be lots of people chasing the same number of jobs currently which is currently 5:1 in the West Midlands, according to the ONS.

What we need to do is take the initiative like some very small Sole Traders and Micro Companies, who had work done in China because it was cheap andbring that work back here for the British workers.

This includes I.T, which has all gone to India and China - Mostly.

Yes it will be more expensive because the cost of living in a developed country will always be higher than one where you get 50p and hour and work 23 hours a day and getfedonce every 2 weeks if you beg the gangmaster hard enough for your obligatory bowl of gruel.

We must get away from this notion “It can be done cheaper abroad”
maybe it can but at what price?

The price of the people’s livliehoods over here that’s what. I.T included.
Comment by Ted on 2 March 2009:

Most of those so called “agents” are simple pimps. Whole this procedure and policies where funds allocated for projects are wasted into unproductive (not taking part in development) parties is very troubling. I have never seen an agent whose intentions were not to squeeze contractors’ hourly rate and on the other side charge the client as much as they can. Imagine giving 10 contractors working for an agent – and what he/she is doing at the same time. What he/she cares about deadlines, elevating own technical knowledge, constantly following new technologies?
Comment by Snoreta on 3 March 2009:

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I would like to know more about it.

Snoreta

recruitment agencies
Comment by Ian on 13 March 2009:

Given the number of response now on here I am not going to spout on about my view one way or the other because it will get lost in the haze. What I will say though is that reading many of the responses it strikes me that most of the posts slating recruiters are poorly typed with spelling mistakes, typos and poor grammer, often in a message stating how un-intelligent recrutiers are. Hmm..
Comment by popklop on 21 March 2009:

Доброе время суток! Сегодня, пользуясь дружественным дизайном этого блога, открыл для себя большое количество доселе неизвестных вещей. Можно сказать, что я существенно отстал в данной тематике в виду её постоянного развития, но всё же блог мне напомнил о многом и открыл новую, можно даже сказать, таинственную информацию. Раньше я часто пользовался информацией подобных блогов, но в последнее время настолько сильно зарапортовался, что нет времени даже зайти в аську… что говорить уже о блогах… Но всё равно спасибо создателям. Блог очень полезный и смышлёный.
Comment by Craig Sennett on 24 March 2009:

The person who wrote the original article clearly does not know how to manage a relationship with a recruiter. I own a recruitment agency and whilst what he says some of the large corporate may do. In ten years I have only seen evidence of a small amount of his accusations we WOULD NOT!

For example

1) Asking ‘What is your interview process’

We do this so we can brief our candidates on what to expect. Is there a technical test? Is it a two interview process, how much time off work will they need for the meeting + tavel etc? I would expect you to know why people ask this it’s called being professional!

2) Ringing for a chat
Fair point here but recruiters don’t really do this much anymore it has evolved since these days. Well everyone I know in the industry has but perhaps I am just lucky and with some good people.

3) Asking to come meet us
Sorry to burst your bubble but we do benefit from knowing what a company is like, how much parking is there, how easy to find it. (Some of our clients can be hard to find and there big corporate companies in London).
We also benefit from knowing the dress style, age range how people interact and I could go on for ages about the skills we have to do this and I am surprised you are unaware of them.

4) Editing Candidate CV’s
We simply have a policy of not doing this, if a CV is crap we kick it back to the candidates, we do a profile for the clients showing the relevance to the job in question. This is it we don’t edit and it sounds like you deal with some pony agencies.

5. Lying
This is just stupid, we don’t do it and I don’t know an independent agency that does and I know a few. These days were in the 90’s where it did happen but you can’t hide anymore and you just get found out. I would suggest you look at your PSL of agent’s big time as what your posting about all of us all the time is showing your understanding on the subject.

6. Imaginary Companies
Again a 1990’s thing, we do advise clients what a candidate is looking for and what there currently on when we send them over that is standard.

7. Spam
Only the poor quality desperate ones my staff do not have time to do this we work with our clients and advise them if someone SUITABLE to what they normally look for comes free. They appreciate this and say “yes we would like to see them” or “no thanks were not looking for someone in that area” but it’s always relevant.

8. Removing Contact Details
We never remove surnames but we do remove contact details with a new client as we need a degree of protection for our intellectual property. I am sure an IT company when selling its product does not send over its source code. We give the information at a suitable time but we have clients we can give all the info to at the start as our relationship is that upfront.

9. Recruiting those they just placed
If this is true then you clearly do not work with good agents our terms of business exclude this behaviour and we do not do it at all! You clearly need to vet your agents.

10. Lastly they are all scum
Very mature indeed

Clearly you’re in middle management with limited say over who you use OR you just have a problem with recruiters but for god sake get over yourself and get some good agencies on board, check them out and build a relationship with them as posting this dribble is just a joke.

We make a small number of high level placements everywhere and our reputation is king, it brings us new clients all the time without the need for sales. I find your postings hard to believe in this day and age maybe 1990 but now…..
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 24 March 2009:

Personally I really cannot see why we need these parasites at all. They were not required in times gone by, and if we stopped all immigration they would not be required now either.

The sad truth is that immigration has gone on since 1920 largely unchecked and the jobs are not there for all of us. Add to that the much lower entry qualifications for universities than in the past and you can see the problem.

Call me protectionist if you like, I think that it is a good thing. I do not and never have believed all this global nonsense, that we are fed day after day week after week.

How recruitment can even be considered a career choice is totally beyond me. What it is basically saying is that those who work in I.T for example have not got the brains or intelligence to market themselves effecitvely.

And tell me exactly what difference is a pratt in a pair of shiny shoes going to make? who does not even know how to do that job themselves. Recruitment is just a mugs game.

If I had a pound for every time a “recruiter” rang me and promised that they could shit cucumbers, I would be very very rich and not need to work at all. All these people are just con artists really and are there because bosses cannot be bothered to get off their fat arses and select potential candidates themselves. It is not difficult to do this if you know the sort of person you are looking for to fill a particular role. It just takes a little common sense, which is something that Britain seems to have forgotten about.

As for the Government asking these people to help the Job Centres out, well I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. It will not make one iota of difference and this will be proven in the months and years to come. Job Centres unfortunately have a bad image and stigma attached, although this has improved recently. This is why a lot of bosses do not put job vacancies with them. The job centre needs to go on the offensive and market itself far more agressievely. It needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

I don’t think many private recruitment agnecies will help the job centres, it is not difficult to see why, there is no money in it for them when your average “recruiter” is paid upwards of £2000 to place a person in a job, by the client.

The job centres on the other hand are a Government funded organisation, where money is not the prime objective and putting people in real and proper jobs is. That is what it is really about.
Pingback by Recruitment Agents are Scum! on 31 March 2009:

[...] article in question was by Nick Halstead, entitled “10 Reasons why I hate Recruitment Agents”, what made it stand out was that it was from a clients perspective not a candidates. What I think [...]
Comment by Al on 1 April 2009:

I dont think ive ever read such a small minded blog. How can go generalise an entire industry and tar everyone with the same brush? Perhaps by being ignorant and small minded? Like any industry there is good and bad. Very glad i havent had the misfortune to come into contact with you!
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Hi Al,

This is not a small minded blog at all. It is is a collection of similar experiences by several articulate people including myself, although some do include typographical errors, which might be due to their frustration about these agencies when replying.

It is also possibly the main reason why I have been self-employed in I.T for the past 21 years and rarely used agencies per sai. Only one I have found was ever any good and he is is a “one-man band”.

http://www.matrixrecruitment.co.uk

These people are basically selling or packaging a non-existent entity. A boss should be the one who will decide who can carry out a particular role based on how the person performs at interview.

Nothing else need be considered at all, NO third parties or agencies are required. This “Extra Layer” between selection and interview is not required at all. It is up to the candidate thats all. What we have here is a market with a false bottom.

C’mon bosses, you are intelligent enough to be bosses in the first place, why can you not be intelligent enough to select candidates yourselves too, rather than pay someone £3000 to do it for you.

The job of an agent or rather non-job to give it a more accurate term is basically a total waste of time.

What should be happening is that company bosses, directors and the like should be taught the skills to do the job of selection, interviewing and recruiting themselves. This was how it was in the past and it worked. If your face fitted and you could do the job you were in and if it didn’t you were out, simple as that.

Most agents or at least the ones I have come across think they are more than they are anyway and seem to think an awful lot of themselves. They are so far up their own backsides, it could be described as a potholing expedition.

Most of these people seem to think they are the worlds best salesperson. Very few of them are even knowledgable in the art of selling.

It is a pity the recruitment industry was de-regulated a few years back. Prior to this you had to have an employment licence issued by [the then] DTI, and were not allowed to operate without one. You were also inspected onm a regular basis. Now it’s just a free for all and any man and his dog can do it, with a phoney pretend regulator which you have to pay an annual fee to be a member of.

i.e a purchased membership, rather than a regulated membership. these are two totally different things.

Recruitment, it is all a load of phoney poney and trap as the cockneys’ might say. There is no need for these parasites feeding of someone else’s hard work.

By the way I am articulate and qualified and can spell reasonably well. An earlier respondent on here said that the people here did not know what they were talking about because the could not spell.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

John, you are lucky that you haven’t had to use agencies.. why don’t you tell all the other contractors out there how to sell themselves to companies !! I’m sure you’d have a very successful business selling your ’secrets’ to those contractors who don’t wish to use agencies…

As for managers/directors recruiting staff directly…how much does it cost a manager / director in their own time to sift CV’s and interview people who aren’t suitable in person or who face the prospect of taking a counter offer and turning the job down ? I can really see a boss loving the prospect of having to readvertise the position again ? and spending more money on advertising, again not getting any guarantee of a response ? then having the phones blocked up by applicants ringing everyday to find out if they will get an interview….

What about if they are replacing somebody who is going to be sacked ? Should they use the job centre maybe ? or an advert with a PO Box number ?

You really don’t know much at all about recruitment….
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

I can understand why you have only ever worked for yourself in the past 21 years….
Comment by Craig Sennettt on 1 April 2009:

John

You clearly have had a bad experience with the industry but your 10 points in the original article I have (in an earlier post) given you the reasons why recruiters do what they do. At first I thought you a disgruntled line manager but sadly you’re not even this.

You’re commenting from a client’s perspective in your opening post yet you have been a contractor as you say for the past 21 years, this hardly adds weight to your argument does it?

To further show your lack of understanding….. NEWSFLASH…..The recruitment industry was never regulated in England, I think it should be but it has never been in the 11 years I have been in it.

Your spelling you say is ok but your post has errors, quality of work is also something my staff look for in contractors and permanent staff and you have been found wanting in your last post.

I would urge you look at the reply I gave to your 10 points earlier as you have dealt with some useless agencies in the past it seems like there are useless contractors and clients out there who waste our time as well, it’s a 2 way thing this. It’s easy to blame the agency as were a soft touch though.

Your last post is a diamond one though, it’s not that clients are too lazy to find staff it’s just that it takes a lot of time and requires dedicated resources which we have. The same as any agent has be they football, estate or whatever. We have a product to sell which is good staff, they don’t part with their money unless ours is better than what they have to offer you know!

I look forward to your reply on my 10 points as you are coming across as totally clueless on what or how our industry works.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Hi Craig,

I suppose I am lucky that I have not had to use too many agencies down the years. The first time I met one I knew something was not right and I have been proved correct time and time again.

I am certainly not a useless contractor either, I just really do not see the point in having an extra “money making” layer between selection and interview.

This is something the companies can and should do themselves and quite a few do. There has of late been a plethora of ads, which specifically state “No Agencies Please”, now I wonder if these people think the same way that I do or perhaps have come to thwe same conclusion about these people as I have. My guess would be quite possibly that they have, well if these agencies are so wonderful why put something like that in an advertisement for a job.

I reckon I get more work directly than I ever would from an agency. Granted the pay is not so good and you have to work a lot harder and sometimes for longer hours, but it cuts out the pointless middle-man.

Why on earth add and extra step to the supply chain when there is absolutely no need for one in the first place.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Craig

I am also well aware of how you industry work, you do not have to be Einstein to sell er…sorry I mean “package” someone to a client.
This type of selling is not really selling in the true sense of the word.

Suppose for example I came to you for a job and you had a suitable position available, ask yourself a question could you REALLY sell me any better than I could myself, I doubt it because you don’t know me and 30 minute interview is not long enough to decide either. The answer therefore is clearly NO you could not. The only person that could sell me is belive it or not er…me !!
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Hi Deedledum

So go on then inform me what I need to know about recruitment to succeed then. I warn you that what you say will have been tried and tested over the years, before the recruitment was ever even thought of.

So go on then tell me all the wonderful things that justify a job in recruitment that I as a mere cynical mere mortal don’t know about then.

I warn you I am the worlds second biggest cynic when it comes to fake industries like this, my father is the first and he too has been proved right time and again too. He’s 73 now and trust me he is right. That usually end up being the case, and yes we are both from a business background too - not just humble contractors to be walked all over.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

“I reckon I get more work directly than I ever would from an agency. Granted the pay is not so good and you have to work a lot harder and sometimes for longer hours, but it cuts out the pointless middle-man”…..I think the fact you are obviously shy of working hard says it all…i’m not surprised one agency has ever employed you, if as you state that going through an agency pays more, then why you keep asking STUPID questions as to why contractors use them….talk about double standards….you are obviously a mediocre contractor, with a poor CV, workshy, this explains why you’re not earning top rates…you haven’t a clue how to sell yourself….
Comment by Ian on 1 April 2009:

John,

Just a couple of points on your response to Craig. One, the reason companies put “No Agencies Please” is because they already have relationships with recruiters and do not wish to have more people than necessary working to fill the position. Sadly there are some out there who will just send out CV’s and play the numbers game, ie the more they send the more likely they are to make a placement. These are those who do not have the talent and professionalism required to build relationships with clients of their own and they bring the rest of us down. The second point is about what you call “the pointless middle-man” in the same sentance as saying the pay is worse and the hours are longer without them. That doesn’t seem a very strong argument.

With contracting aside from finding suitable candidates within minutes of a client giving us the requirement, what clients and candidates do not appreciate is that we do not just simply pass a CV over, arrange an interview and then sit back and collect the money. We are responsible for that contractor whilst they are on site, if they don’t turn up one day it is us that the client calls. We pay the contractor weekley, bi-weekley or monthly the client pays us 30 days after the invoice. As a contractor, would you be happy to do six months of a contract before being able to get paid, I would hazzard a guess that you wouldn’t.

Ian
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

Your various responses are indicative of somebody who has been rejected by agencies, your attitude to being afraid of working hard speaks volumes….
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

If you are a client here is my quick guide to recruitng for a person.

1. DEFINE JOB ROLES AND DUTIES
2. DEFINE THE TYPE OF PERSON REQUIRED
3. ADVERTISE JOB
4. INVITE APPLICANTS TO APPLY
5. DO AN INITIAL SELECTION FOR INTERVIEW
6. INTERVIEW APPLICANTS
7. SHORTLIST APPLICANTS
8. SECOND INTERVIEW IF REQUIRED
9 CHOOSE AN APPLICANT

Can it really be this easy, this is exactly what agencies do all the time ? No why can’t bosses do something this simple themselves.

I think they must be either asleep, lazy or running up the company expense account.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Ian

It is not always the case that adverts who say “No Agencies Please”, already have non-enforceable agreements with the local recruitment company.

I have found when I have asked this question and I have on occasion, the response I get is generally quite negative and that the particular comapny does not like to use an agency.

In other words they think like I do or possibly that hiring a recruitment agency is na expensive waste of time.

I agree that this is not always the case, but I have gone out of my way to ask and that honestly has been the typical response I have received
Comment by Ian on 1 April 2009:

Quote: Author: John Wheatcroft
Comment:
If you are a client here is my quick guide to recruitng for a person.

1. DEFINE JOB ROLES AND DUTIES
2. DEFINE THE TYPE OF PERSON REQUIRED
3. ADVERTISE JOB
4. INVITE APPLICANTS TO APPLY
5. DO AN INITIAL SELECTION FOR INTERVIEW
6. INTERVIEW APPLICANTS
7. SHORTLIST APPLICANTS
8. SECOND INTERVIEW IF REQUIRED
9 CHOOSE AN APPLICANT

Can it really be this easy, this is exactly what agencies do all the time ? No why can’t bosses do something this simple themselves.

I think they must be either asleep, lazy or running up the company expense account.

John,

Do you really believe that if it was that straight forward there would be companies all over the world, thousands of them, with multi-million pound turnovers?

Have you ever recruited for a member of staff whilst at the same time managing an existing team of 30 IT staff? Have you ever placed an ad for a vacancy and had the response?

Until you have I suspect you are not really in a position to critisize either recruiters or those managers who use us.

Ian
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deedledum

I am certainly not workshy or mediocre or have a poor CV. I put in about 70 plus hours a week. Its just that when you work for yourself you do not earn as much for the same amount of work. You have to remain competitive.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

OK John…..why do companies use Advertising Agencies ?….I presume you think they should cut out the middle man and the MD or the marketing manager should create adverts themselves….you are a fool….
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Ian

C’mon Ian, who are you trying to kid. It really is not that difficult to recruit for a vacancy, provided you are organised and know the sorty of person or indeed personality required.

If you honestly think that it is such a hard thing to do, I can see why you are in recruitment trying to justify your job. You are forgetting that people have been finding work and thuis selling themselves or “packaging” as you people like us to say, for years before there was any such industry called “recruitment”

Recruitment has not actually beeen around that long, or at least certainly not in the form it is these days. The problem is that everyones want to be the number one salesman.

It is no different to the chap in PC-World who is paid £5.75 and hour but he wears a suit he is called a manager. Yet he kbnows nothing about management and probably will never do so either.
Maybe its not an exact analogy but its close enough.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deedledum

Advertising agencies are very different when you are trying to promote your own product of course you want to present it in the best way possible so you go to an expert.

That does not apply to people who have never even done the job selling other people who can do the job.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

1. DEFINE JOB ROLES AND DUTIES
2. DEFINE THE TYPE OF PERSON REQUIRED
3. ADVERTISE JOB
4. INVITE APPLICANTS TO APPLY
5. DO AN INITIAL SELECTION FOR INTERVIEW
6. INTERVIEW APPLICANTS
7. SHORTLIST APPLICANTS
8. SECOND INTERVIEW IF REQUIRED
9 CHOOSE AN APPLICANT

How much does it cost in management time to do all these ?

Let’s say an IT manager is earning 60,000 pa that’s roughly £30 an hour….include the price of the advert and I gurantee it is more cost effective to use an agency…

As has been said before John…you don’t have a clue….
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Ian

No I have never personally recruited for anyone whilst looking after a team of 30. Even if I had to though I would presonally prefer to do it myself and organise it in such a way that I could do it myself, obviously with the agreement of the people above me.

It might be seen as a cost cutting measure but I bet the end result would be identical. People will sell themselves naturally and any employer will know inside a couple of months whether the applicant is up to the job and thus whether they have made the right choice.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

1. DEFINE JOB ROLES AND DUTIES (fine)
2. DEFINE THE TYPE OF PERSON REQUIRED (fine)
3. ADVERTISE JOB (fine) but what guarantee are you going to get of a response ?
4. INVITE APPLICANTS TO APPLY - How do you know if they are any good ? How many of them have lied on their CV ? How many have lied about qualifications ? How do you know they will have the right personality to fit in ? Are they a plodder or are they ambitious ?
5. DO AN INITIAL SELECTION FOR INTERVIEW (see above)
6. INTERVIEW APPLICANTS
7. SHORTLIST APPLICANTS
8. SECOND INTERVIEW IF REQUIRED
9 CHOOSE AN APPLICANT - What happens if the candidate rejects the offer after second interview ? as does the second one ? How is a counter offer handled ? Have you also spent time writing to all those who weren’t suitable ? What if the candidate wants ‘thinking time about the offer and in the meantime the second best has got another job ?

BACK TO SQUARE 1….
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

I take it John you are a 1st line support expert…
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deededum

I have much more of a clue than you think I do my friend, like I say it depends on how you organise things. You seem to be forgetting that the large wages of yesteryear are no more generally speaking.

Quite a lot of the big business illuminaries, seem to be turning their backs on agencies. Lets take Branson for example, Several of his companies won’t go near agencies, and yes he has a multi-million pound turnover and it ahs been said that generally people are very happy to work for him or his group. I came across that via a friend of mine who used to work for him. I am sure there are others who adopt the same approach.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deedledum

Yes I have done first line support, both customer facing and as a remote engineer for a specific product. In fact support is the number one thing at present. There has not been any realy NEW development ideas for quite some time now. I think the mikllenium bug was the last “big thing”
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

“In fact support is the number one thing at present.” - how did I guess…I rest my case…
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deededum

Well yes of course if an applicant reject a job offer at the second interview that is a downside but that could just as easily happen with an agency as it could if someone goes directly to the potential employer instead, which is why it is always good to end up with two possible candidates for a role, in case one does drop out or indeed gets a better offer.
Comment by deedledum on 1 April 2009:

So which of Bransons companies don’t use agencies then John….please tell us…
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deedledum

You do not necessarily need an agency to carry out support work. I have approaching 400 customers which I have worked hard for over the years. I do not know how I would cope if they all called at once though lol :@}
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Deedles

I think it is more of his banking and chauffer businesses which do not rely on agencies. I think bransons train set might use them and I am not sure about the airline but I am certain the banking side and the chauffering side does not.
Comment by Ian on 1 April 2009:

John,

As a manager you want the best person for the job right? That person that you want is not going to be walking the streets looking for work. If they are that good they will already be working for the compitition. How as a manager with a day job do you go and find that person? Writing an ad and looking at the response will a) take too long, on average you will get 60+ reposnses for a job advert. b) only target people who are currently looking for work. What about those people who aren’t looking but are open minded enough to consider interesting opportunities brought to their attention?

Without wishing to resort to name calling like deedledum it seems you are not particularly open minded John. Shame.

Anyway I don’t have time for this, I have clients who need vacancies filling! and I want to get home for the football tonight or the apprentice, not decided yet.

Regards,

Ian
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 1 April 2009:

Hi Ian

Hope you enjoyed footy and I am just watching “The Apprentice”
I am actuially open mionded but I have yet to experience anything different from recruitment agencies that I have not really experienced already.

You can see how greedy gfor money a lot of them are, have you noticed how quiet it has gone since Gordon Brown had the bright idea of private recruitment companies, helping out the Government funded Job Centres.

The silence is deafening, proving that they are only in it for the money, and what they can get out of it for themselves. They’re not people at all. I can’t exactly see them all rushing to help the Government out can you ?
Comment by Craig Sennettt on 2 April 2009:

I love it a contractor says recruiters are greedy.

John I have to say you are clueless about our industry and what we do, you look at it from your own point of view which is fine but there is a lot that goes on in our industry and above all.

There are many types of agencies, high street, specialists etc, contract only, perm only, corporate etc you’re just looking at one part and taking the bad bits which I could do about candidates as well or poor clients I have encountered over the years.

KEEP THIS IN MIND.

We are a results based industry, if a client takes our candidate it means there better than what they have found on their own and better than other agents candidates.

So we have done what we were asked to do, I would suggest you get the chip off your shoulder as this site makes you sound like a plank. I answered all your points honestly and put them all to bed.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 2 April 2009:

Hi Craig

what you say might be true. There possibly is a lot that goes on. The point I am trying to make is that your job [sorry], does not exactly take rocket science to do oneself.

Now that point alone to me at least is no justification whatsoever for an enitre industry being built up basically because people are too lazy to do the job themselves, which they could of course.

I take your point that maybe using an agency AFTER having tried to recruit themselves could be an interesting idea, but again it all comes down to a selling exercise and surely I am the one who in my case knows the most about myself.

Therefore if I did my own interview prep properly, which is exactly what an agent would do then surely I would be able to market myself as good if not better than any agent and at no cost to the client.

Maybe I am looking at one section of the market but they all come down to the same thing whether the agency specilaise in I.T, Electronics or Astronauts.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder at all, I have far to many years on the clock for that but as with anything a salesperson is just a salesperson, whether they be selling cars, cranes or people.

My point and the point I was trying to make was the the I.T industry as a whole seems far to reliant on these people, almost like looking at an agent BEFORE they consider any other methods of recruiting, almost as if it has become the normal and accepted thing to do.

This probably explains why there are so many agencies chasing fewer and fewer jobs.

The one positive thing I will say though that I have noticed over the years that I.T agencies which are run by women are generally better than those run by men.

This has been proved to be a psychological thing though. A male I.T manager who is perhaps recruiting will nearly always be less confrontational in front of a woman than they would if they were approached by a male recruiting agent.

Incidentally this ios exactly the reason why most of the tax offices up and down the country tensd to employ more women investigators than men - its less confrontational.
Comment by deedledum on 2 April 2009:

If you are earning less than agency contractors, then i’d say you had marketed yourself poorly….
Comment by Craig Sennettt on 2 April 2009:

So your argument is aimed at people being too lazy to do it themselves.

The funny thing behind this is the same argument could be levelled at IT contractors. What pay 35% more for someone with the same skills and less loyalty?

Your entire argument is flawed. People should not take contractors by your standard they can be just as mercenary and more so in some cases.

You really have not thought this through have you?
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 2 April 2009:

Hi Craig

Well I have been in business for 21 years and I am still here hopefully for another 21. I do not charge over inflated high prices for anything. All our engineers / technicians are at least MCP qualified too. We charge real prices for real work and do not have to put asn agecny cut on top
Comment by Craig Sennettt on 2 April 2009:

Yes but your still more expensive than a perm person are you not???

See case closed your doing the same as us, creaming money away from permanent staff by charging more than they do….

It works both ways and you cannot have your cake and eat it, you slate us for what you’re doing.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 2 April 2009:

Actually we are possibly a little less expensive than a permanent employee. Comparable certainly. You have changed the argument Sir. I have never said anything about permanent staff at all. What I have said is that most agencies are rubbish and bosses should learn to hire people themselves, whether it be permanent or contract, so stop changing the argument to suit what you think.

The reason I usually get called out in terms of a support role is generally because either an employee or contractor does not knoqw how to do something, so its an educational role too.

Once they have been shown they tend to learn. However you cannot say this with regards to programming as its a different animal altogether
Comment by deedledum on 2 April 2009:

So this was about recruiting for a contractor was it ?

If you are a client here is my quick guide to recruitng for a person.

1. DEFINE JOB ROLES AND DUTIES
2. DEFINE THE TYPE OF PERSON REQUIRED
3. ADVERTISE JOB
4. INVITE APPLICANTS TO APPLY
5. DO AN INITIAL SELECTION FOR INTERVIEW
6. INTERVIEW APPLICANTS
7. SHORTLIST APPLICANTS
8. SECOND INTERVIEW IF REQUIRED
9 CHOOSE AN APPLICANT

Can it really be this easy, this is exactly what agencies do all the time ? No why can’t bosses do something this simple themselves.

I think they must be either asleep, lazy or running up the company expense account.
Comment by deedledum on 2 April 2009:

And no need to call him sir….he’s not your boss and it is very subservient to call somebody ’sir’ only Michael Winners butler and the doorman at the Dorchester say ’sir’
Comment by deedledum on 2 April 2009:

Do you want some duelling pistols John ? Don’t forget to give him a fair old ’smite’ across the face with your leather driving glove first !!
Comment by Craig Sennettt on 2 April 2009:

You were saying my industry is not needed and it is money for nothing I am saying that is the same as any contractor (you raised cost as an issue not me).

You can train up your perm staff to do whatever a contractor can do and it will cost you less money. We also offer a buffer legally between the company taking them on and PAYE contract staff and IR35 protection IR35 protection to LTD Company contractors.

John you really have not got a clue and so many people fail in recruitment as they perceive it as easy. In reality it should be but our product is people and there a random element. You’re just looking at it from inside your tiny negative perspective not the big picture of it.

If we were all bad nobody would be using us and our clients really value our industry expertise so much so that we do NO SALES WORK. Our clients refer us onto others they know in their industry that’s how we get new business, by doing a good job.
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 2 April 2009:

I like your sense of humour Deddledum !!

Duelling pistols now there is a thought

John
Comment by BM on 8 April 2009:

1. Sent to an interview for “Finance Director” of a property management group. Was interviewed by the FD and his Financial Controller. The position was actually for Assistant to the Financial Controller (I am a CA with 20 years experience by the way). The FD was not amused when he heard I was interviewing for his job. I gave feedback to RA - never heard from them again.

2. Have been called by a RA while on an interim assignment. Was near the end of the contract term and the RA asked me if I would be interested in another position. I said yes and the RA said he would keep me informed. Next thing I know my boss receives a call from this RA asking if they will need another contractor as the “current one” has indicated that if the contract term is extended he will not be staying.

3. I always try and avoid telling a RA who I am currently working for or just make it up. I know it goes straight into the database.

4. Have supplied referee’s and they have been contacted not for a reference but to see if they require contract workers.

5. One agency wants a CV in a certain format, another in another format….. If I give them everything its too much. If I summarise experience its not enough detail.

6. I hate being “interviewed” by agencies and the interviewer is obviously straight out of school/college - if that. Its pretty insulting to have worked in an industry for so many years and to have my career in the hands of person who wouldn’t know the difference between a debit or a credit if it bit them on the arse.
Comment by Jonathan on 8 April 2009:

Yeah - let’s face it. Most recruiters really do stink.

I am happily employed right now - not as a contractor but full time. And I made the switch a couple of months ago from contracting because the extra pay just isn’t worth the trouble.

I had three contract assignments last year, and I still don’t have my W-2 form from one recruiter (yes I have bugged them 7 x already).

And BM’s story I think is typical regarding how hard it is to work with most of them.

My 0.02,

Jon
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 8 April 2009:

Totally agree with both Jonathan and “BM” and especially with BM on the matter of CV’s. I have fallen into this one myself. It would seem that there is no consistency regarding CV format between any ofthe agencies and yet they all profess to be experts, which they are not of course.

I’ve have been told to label certain points in my career as “Early Career” on my CV. This will undoubtedly mean that a potential employer will see this as a negative and probably not even bother to read it.

I went to another company who claimed that for about £60.00 they could improve my CV, again these are just subjective opinions which mean nothing. It seems to me that these agencies are not always as good at marketing as they would like to think.

Why is it all of these people seem to think that they are experts when in reality they know very little ? possibly because all the regulations have been removed or relaxed to such a point that they don’t really do very much at all.

Whilst at an agency in Stratford upon Avon the other day, after being cold called from them via Monstyer - “Kate & Co” who said I was a perfect fit for an automotive wholesaler nearby. I did not get off to a good start with them but did manage to redeem myself. 24 hours later they told me that I had not been selected due to experience etc.

I have been in the industry for 20 plus years and have a good deal of relevant experience and probably could do the job isn’t it funny how agencies change things within a 24 hour period.

This job I reckon might have been a fake as it is NOT on the clients website and the agency made me fill in a long registration form, which I initially objected too. I doubt they even put my CV forward, despite saying they would. The reply was just too quick somehow. They have my details though and this was something I really wanted to avoid. If they can do this once they can do it again.

This and several other reasons is why I have put a petition up on the No.10 Website, calling for the re-introduction of the regulations regard these sort of businesses. the regulations that Mrs Thatcher stupidly abolished, during one of her “Greed is Good” moments.

If you want to sign here is the link

http://search.petitions.number10.gov.uk/kbroker/number10/petitions/search.lsim?ha=1157&sc=number10&qt=itrecruitment
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

So how come you worked for an IT recruitment agency at ‘home’ for 3 years then John ? It can’t have been that bad if you stuck it for that length of time ? Also i’d be very worried that you had so many unaccounted for gaps of up to 12 months in your resume ? were you in jail for those times that are unaccounted for ?
Comment by Craig on 9 April 2009:

John you still have not learnt have you.

Your petition is a joke and is not based on any facts at all and signed by a bunch of disgruntled candidates who were told they did not get the job, it is rather pathetic.

There is no substance to what you have written and you have implied that clients can’t interview or recruit. This industry is a multi billion pound one and the government get a lot of revenue from us in taxes a hell of a lot!

It astounds me that you are so clueless and as for the people who posted on it……..If any agents read it expect the phones to go cold overnight.

It is like us banning contractors as you stop permanent people getting jobs, or banning contractors tax breaks it’s just not going to happen.

If you were the chairman of Microsoft I could understand you may have a shot, but let’s face it you’re a support monkey working on contracts that some will have come from agencies no doubt - Doh!

This site and discussion can be summed up one way; there are good and bad agents, agencies, contractors and clients……That’s life so you pointing the finger (I answered all you points much earlier just shows you as having too much spare time and nothing to do). Please for your own sake get over it as I am embarrassed for you.
Comment by Craig on 9 April 2009:

Also you expect to be taken seriously by writing a petition with a host of grammatical errors, it was not proof read and you cannot even spell “RECRUITING” the main subject of it!!!!!!

I can see why agents did not flock to you as for someone in IT you cannot even find spell check (clue it’s F7.

John you never had any credibility in my eyes and neither does this petition. You are an epic failure my man please stick to fixing “Non system disc in Drive A” errors.

Also you put

“For example the NHS would thousands by recruitng”

I think you were supposed to add the word “SAVE” and spell the word recruiting like this (—–.

I bet your CV is riddled with as many mistakes…. John, John, John I have said enough please go moan about something you understand as you clearly are not the sharpest and please fix the petition’s errors as if you send it to parliament you will be laughed by all.
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

And he was a technical author too….
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

“John you never had any credibility in my eyes and neither does this petition. You are an epic failure my man please stick to fixing “Non system disc in Drive A” errors.” hahaaahahahahaha
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Hi Deedledum

The years you are talking about is a bit of an exception as it happens but I was not actually working for CSS Trident.

I was actually working for the Eye Laser Academy in Harley Street writing their patient Administration Software in Foxpro. I was not actually paid by the agency I was only introduced by them, for which they received a fixed fee.

Yes there are gaps in my CV because there is no work in Foxpro and there is no one who is willing to cross train people who know Foxpro or Visual Foxpro, into say DOT Net.

Anyone will tell you that in its class it is one of the best RDMS’s going, which is why Microsoft bought it because their own one Access is a not very good and they only bought it because it had “Rushmore Technology” in a method of searching very large databases in an extremely fast manner.

Microsoft have tried to kill Foxpro but it has a much larger user base than Access, so they have had to resort to discontinuing development of the product to the point where it is no longer included in Visual Studio. Current version is version 9.0

Possibly the reason my spelling is off sometimes, not that often I might add, if you compare my comments to some others on here is that this is a very very very cheap keyboard, which does sometimes stick. When I was 11 I had a reading writing and comprehension age of 42 - The highest in the school I might add, so please do not insult by attaching my perfectly sound argument to occasional dodgy spelling when the teo things are mutually exclusive to each other.

Gaps in CV so flipping what if the work is not there it is not there simple as that. A few companies will cross-train but not that many allthat sort of work has gone to Bangalore I think you will find. There is no such thing a s a real job anymore.

Don’t forget my CV has been rejigged counteless time and cost me a lot of money, by so called experts. It does not make one jot of difference.

There is nothing wrong with my petition, what I am saying is thaqt when there were regulations there to monitor how these companies operated things were a lot better and agencies WERE at one time good. The keyword there is “WERE”.

Now we just have a ‘free-for-all’ where anyone can claim to be a recruitment company. This has in effect diluted things. There are still the same number of people chasing the same number of jobs.

The regulatory body now is just a bunch of chamapagne swilling “Hooray Henries”, from what I have heard from believe it or not a recruitment company.

A company also has to pay to be a member,of this organisation so we know where the interest in regulation lies then. It lies in the paid membership rather than actually doing any regulating at all.

Originally the Government used to issue licences to employment companies and they were monitored on a regular basis. They lost their licence to operate if they did not come up to scratch.

This is different to what we have now and that is my point. The quality has gone through the floor because of the lack of any proper regulation and the increase in these sort of outfits.

Thats why most agencies as Jonathan said really do stink and that is my point !

I suppose a good analogy might be which would you rather have

a) Watered down beer because its cheaper
b) Real beer

I cannot say whether beer is watered down or not, but for the
purpose of this argument lets assume that all breweries and pubs are honest. This is exactly how agencies are now although I accept that once upon a time things might have been marginally better.
Comment by Craig on 9 April 2009:

I think John has not read my comments as per usual - typical.

John it was never regulated and it currently does not have a regulatory body, just an optional code of practice which is toothless as you either pay to join or you don’t. The worst it can do is kick you out and if you don’t break the law your fine.

I would suggest some more research as to my knowledge IT WAS NEVER REGULATED certainly not in my 11 years!

As for paying people to do your CV - you are the mug then as I have never actually met anyone who did this so you’re the first, congratulations!

I am still embarrassed for you but read what I wrote as your petition is a joke and it’s not the odd spelling error its (not putting capitals after full stop’s, + words missing + spelling errors). You might read at 42 but you type at 9.
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Hi Craig

Perhaps you can tell me what the following link is all about then regarding the regulation of employment agencies

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20033319.htm

I beg to differ and I know someone, a recruitment agent, who is quite good who received a monitoring visit from the DTI

John
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Craig

Granted like I say this keyboard is shit but do not make the mistake of regarding intelligence agains the ability to type correctly. My sister has an MA Honours Degree from Southampton university, but she cannot boil an egg without it exploding. I myself am currently doing my MCSE, which is really easy, so I would not make the connection as it is totally irrelevant.
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Craig

It would be relevant if I were coding all day long, but then I would expect to be using something rather better than a shitty keyboard like this. If my employer could afford to hire me then he or she can also afford to give me good tools to work with

John
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

Have you actually read that John ? ….this was formulated when a number of agencies started charging candidates to find a job, cruise ships, film extras etc….I remember 4 or 5 agencies getting closed down due to scamming money out of candidates…this also applies to gangmasters and their sometimes unscrupulous ways of employing workers to work the fields in Lincolnshire picking fruit and veg….holding back money to pay for accommodation, which turned out to be a caravan with no windows at the edge of a field…..a few bits on how agencies should advertise i.e. they should state that they are an agency…bits about paying the temp worker before you can start any potential litigation, et al..

Did you read this bit below John ? Maybe you should petition the government to scrap this part of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 it to suit your situation !!!

Confirmation to be obtained about a work-seeker
19. Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation -

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

I suggest that this (above) is why you have had problems John
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

This was the summing up…..

The two areas we want to examine in relation to vulnerable workers are:

i) the abuse of upfront fees in the entertainment and modelling sector and
ii) the issue of temporary workers employed via umbrella companies.

With regard to clarifying lines of responsibility and reducing regulatory burdens we are seeking views on:

i) suitability checks for permanent recruitment,
ii) requirements to agree terms with work-seekers and hirers and
iii) requirements when placing advertisements.

In addition to the above we are also planning to exempt deaneries from the employment agency legislation.
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

I think i’ll start a petition to get candidates to make sure they complete ALL their CV and not miss bits out hiding potential skeletons.
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

What you have to bear in mind is that when considering CV’s employers tend to look at reasons why they shouldn’t employ somebody….somebody who has job hopped, has NEVER been back to a company they previously worked for on contract suggests they weren’t that good….and gaps on a CV are a no-no, this suggests a jail bird, or somebody who likes to do ’stuff’ for a year or so and not say what it was……
Comment by Craig on 9 April 2009:

Also regardless of the keyboard attention to detail should be paramount in all you do especially if you’re sending the petition to the government you clown.

Deedledum summed it up about the scamming agencies but your way out of your league trying to represent this at government level. It’s just turned into a farce!
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

You need 200 signatures to get a response John….and probably 7 million for the government to do something about it ? I think your time was better spent updating your CV to be honest. To be honest there are some better petitions than yours that have been rejected

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/list/rejected
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Some of your points Deedledum have SOME element of truth. I am not sure whether or not you have done the W100 Law course with the O.U, you have probably realised by now that apart from computing my other hobbies include studying and also electronics, OK i’m a geek I admit it. Sorry but I like studying things ok and checking my facts before I publish them.

Thing is law is law is law whether you choose to categorise yourself or the company you own or work for in some different way, that does not put you above the law. You are still subject to the Employment Agencies Act. The first draft as amended I think was in 1973 but it is still the law.

Let me explain exactly what a statuory instrument is. Here is a brief definition for you:

STATUTORY INSTRUMENT MEANING
—————————-
A document issued by the delegated authority (usually a Government Minister or committee) named within an Act of Parliament which affects the working of the original Act.

The last 5 words of this are vital “Working Of The Original Act”

i.e an act of law enacted by Parliament and latwer modified. As far as I know this law has never been repealed and therefore is still the law.

The bit you are talking about and yers you are right when you say there were some dodgy agencies which were closed down for charging candidates and upfront fee, that part is correct.

The only thing that has changed really is that some companies call themselves “Recruitment Consultants” or “Employment Bureaus” or some other fancy name. The truth is they ALL comer under this law, whether they are flogging pigs to farmers or astronauts to NASA.

NONE of them, whatever they call themselves above this piece of legislation, so you can forget FRES as just another money making scam. The law is there to supposedly protect people from the many dubious agencies who either charge up front and make false claims.

I accept that the law might be out of date, but since it is on the statute books and not repealed, then I assume it is still law. I also accept that it probably wants updating in certain areas.

By the way as a side point do your client pay you BEFORE you have found them a candidate or AFTER the candidate has secured employment with that client - just asking as to the lagalities thats all.

Deedledum your arguments are sometimes quite strange, firstly you insult my intelligence without knowing a thing about me, then you point me to rejected petitions, which IN YOUR OPINION are better than mine, subjective possibly biased opinion. If you work in recruitment I would hardly expect you to sign my petition would I ?

John
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

So John….please tell me which part of that law applies to your specific issues ?

As far as fees go, then it depends if it is a headhunt (part of fees upfront) or a contingency recruit. (paid after candidate starts)

For a headhunt of a £150,000 a year position, you need to find out the structures of a company, and the way it operates….you think there shouldn’t be a charge for this ? or do you feel the MD of a multi national company should do this himself ?

Your right I don’t know a lot about you, but I have seen your CV…I notice you ‘conveniently’ avoided answering this part of the ‘law’

Confirmation to be obtained about a work-seeker
19. Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation -

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

Nothing wrong with being a geek - geeks are very much ‘in’ at the moment….but then again if wearing jewellry made out of cow pats became fashionable then that would be ‘in’ for some people too…

And I completely agree that self regulating bodies are useless….
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Deedledum, I would draw your attention to this paragraph in the act, which was updated in 2004 and came into force on the 6th July 2004 (Mostly bar 3 amendments)

Restriction on agencies and employment businesses purporting to act on a different basis
9. - (1) Neither an agency nor an employment business may, in relation to the introduction or supply of a work-seeker to a hirer, purport to the work-seeker to be acting as an agency and purport to the hirer to be acting as an employment business.

(2) Neither an agency nor an employment business may, in relation to the introduction or supply of a work-seeker to a hirer, purport to the work-seeker to be acting as an employment business and purport to the hirer to be acting as an agency.

This effectively means that whether you are an “Agency”, “Bureau”, “Consultant” or whatever you are still under that law, which is called the “Employment Business Regulations Act 2004″

Is there any point being a member of FRES then, since they do nothing apart from swill champagange on the terrace at the House of Commons as they were doing last year and which was widely reported.

Gives your industry a bad name from what I can see
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Well the bit of the act regarinf advertising, which has not (I think) come in yet. I cannot see that it has but I might be wrong. I will check Blackwells or Lex and see if it has.

There are a number of agencies for example “NANOTECH”, who purport to be private employers offering a jobs and I have been caught by this one.

there are some job boards which allow the ‘poster”, for want of a better word to either post as if they were and employer or agency. there are no checks made to distinguish the two.

I worte an application letter to “NANOTECH”, thinking they were a private employer in my area and they were offering a VFP / Foxpro position, this was several months ago.

I later then did some reasearch after hearing nothing for months and I realised my mistake and in fact they were just another agency presumably harvesting people’s CV’s.

This kind of dishonestly, be it deliberate or a genuine mistake is infuriating. If it was a genuine mistake then fair enough, but if it were a deliberate ploy and it would not be the first time to obtain candidates then it is wrong sincew no mention was made that they were an agency of any kind. Therefore the advertising bit needs to be tightened up and this practice along with posting fake jobs needs to be locked down and stopped.

A work seeker needs to know if they are dealing with an employer or an agent for an employer from the off as it were.

Most agencies will make the claim that they can find you work be it a specialist agency or a general agency. Most of them fall way short in this regard because they always have more candidates than they have jobs to offer, but that does not seem to stop them registering more and more people, and fob them off with the
“Wait and see what work comes in” method of recruitment.
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

You see Deedledum there you go again, much as I like your sense of humour. You are redefining what a “headhunt” is. At the end of the day you a placing someone in a position at a company i.e finding them work and breaking the law atr the same time.

Yes there should be a fee once the postion has been secured, otherwise you are in fact breaking the law. I am sure that if the client knew the law as well as the worker then you, assuming you are talking about yourself or thecompany you perhaps work for, would have had their wrists slapped by now and remmeber ignorance is no defence.

I would love to sit in on just such a court case, just to see what happens. In effect you are charging “partial upfront fees”. ell me how is that different to what went on before the EBR Act came in then. I cannot see any difference apart from the word partial.

It’s still illegal then

Put it another way, you find some VFP work I can do and if I am accepted and I promise to be brilliant at an interview they you will be paid. Thats the legal way to do it my friend.
Comment by Craig on 9 April 2009:

John still avoiding my posts I see…..

When you register as a “poster” on a job board they check to see if you’re an agency or an employer. I know this for a fact (well the reputable ones do) as I own an agency and every job board we use does this bad NONE.

Once again do not build your argument on what you think happens, try to do it on what DOES HAPPEN!

Also do you not check who you’re sending CV’s too, look at their website it’s pretty bloody obvious there an agency. The candidates who just send their CV for every Fox Pro job there is are usually the ones who are least suitable for it. Basic attention to detail again is letting you down, there is a pattern forming here.

Once again I am embarrassed for you!
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Reagrding your other point about CV’s would you not consider 20 plus years experience be it contract permanent or self-employed, people facing, technical skills etc and soon to be an MCSE then not approrpiate experience then.

You see you are assuming that candidates will go from job tyo job to job with no breaks in between. This is not the case for the majority of people.

I know a brilliant guy down in Devon, who could wipe the floor with most of the people on your books, who writes machine code, yes proper code which works extremely fast. He has taught me a lot of what I know. and I go back to CP/M !!!

So would you say that I still do not have any experience then.
Would you still say I am not qualified then, despite almost completing my MCSE. I am presuming you will say that all my qualifications and experience are useless then.

Funny thing is he works for himself too, although he has written software for Londion Underground etc. Tell me why do all the good people seem to end up working for themselves.

By the way I have known him for a good number of years so I am guessing he would give me a good reference too if I aksed him.
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Hi Craig

No I am not ignoring you mate, but I seem to have opened up a can of worms.

I can only say that I found a board where the check was NOT made and therefore the board is probably not reputable. I have forgotten its name, but I found it quite easily.

I went to the section you refer too about Agencies and Employers. It was not until afterwards that I realised that I had signed up to an agency who was pretending to be an employer.

I have only so far encountered this once though and I am not applying it to all job boards carte-blanche, I am saying that there are some who do not make the distinction between agencies and employers
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Here is the link to the Nanotek website

http://www.nanotekltd.com/

these were the people posting on job boards as if they were a private employer. I did not find this out until after I had applied for a job with this outfit, who were posing as an employer and offering a position that I could do in the Warwickshire area.

I never did hear anything from them by the way
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

John it’s only illegal for headhunters to charge up front if they send in an invoice without signing a contract or they are demanding money without the company agreeing to it, ….do you think Solicitors act illegally when they say they want £450 up front to carry out 3 hours work ? Of course not they do it on a signed agreement….
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Deedledum

Ok lets see how good you are then, assuming you work in recruitment and I do apologise if I am wrong in advance.

Find me a Windows Desktop Support / VFP legacy support role in the Warwickshire area and I will take back what I say

Are you up for a challenge. I am assuming you are a hard bitten recruitment consultant, who is up for such challenges.

John :+)
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

Sorry John….I don’t work in IT recruitment anymore, did it for 7 years providing to Nokia, (support, Lotus Notes, network specialists) London Electricity, (IBM Mainframe DBA’s, Programmers,) Tesco - Project Managers, IBM M/F programmers, systems analysts, atchitects,) And Southern Water, IBM M/F and system testers, legacy experts, programmers, sys analysts….
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

Ok Deedledum in that case I apologise for thinking that you might have been involved in recruitment in some way or other. Just out of interest what do you do now ?
Comment by deedledum on 9 April 2009:

I recruit Engineers from all over the world to work in the British Isles and other parts of Europe….
Comment by John on 9 April 2009:

I see so you stayed in recruitment just not I.T recruitment then
Comment by John on 14 April 2009:

I woult just like to say i was a recruitment consultant for one of the biggest firms in the uk and after putting up with sitting with a bunch of annoying recruitment dicks and constantly being nagged into ringin up my clients and badgering them to the point they tell me to go away and all the other crap I then decided ive got better things to do with my life than be an annoting dick.

All experienced recruitment consultants are scum. All they do is lie, talk shit and con people.

And then when questioned about it you all just start dribbling on about how you just trying to provide the best service and acting like you have never done anything bad bla bla bla,

TWATS
Comment by John on 14 April 2009:

okok I have to be honest…not all consultants! buts the majority!!! and its normally the ones that have been in it years!
Comment by John Wheatcroft on 15 April 2009:

Well said John, totally agree with you now this is going to get confusing as we both have the same first name. lol
Comment by Craig on 15 April 2009:

John

So I am a twat and a liar am I? Could it be you just worked for a bad company or had a bad manager?

How long did you last in the job?
Comment by John on 20 April 2009:

I was in the job for 3 years Craig and very successful actually.

I decided to leave due to a close family member being seriously ill,

I have had managers who work on close relationships with some of the largest companies in the world and even though they are under contract agreements on working at cirtain margins, they still mug them off. I know very experienced consultants that charge their European clients over 50% margin without their knowledge.

These are the expeirenced managers that constant salute their pride and mission providing excellent service. But when they are off the phone they then begin to mug their client off for every penny.

Can you honestly tell me you have never over charged on what youve agreed with a client?
Comment by deedledum on 20 April 2009:

Sorry that you had to leave the industry due to a family members’ illness, one day i’m sure you’ll be able to start another job again, good luck…and in 17 years I have never overcharged a client…
Comment by Craig on 21 April 2009:

John

I fail to see how on contract once you agree a margin you can charge more as you will get caught out…… If you charged more that is why you ain’t still as you could have gone off to another recruiter.

The days of idiots over charging went years ago in most cases. I was more anoyed how you said were all liars and twats. If you were very successful I suspect you would have stayed in it even when you moves, most agencies will let a good billing recruiter work remotly as its ££££ out of their pockets if they don’t.

The reason I don’t over charge is why my company does ZERO business development, our clients refer us on and this is why we are doing ok even in dark times.

Its just when morons make blanket statements. If you were in it for 3 years you would know Contractors, Clients and Candidates are just as bad as agents.

Its just some are good and some are bad.
Comment by deedledum on 21 April 2009:

Bad contractors…!!! I once had a support guy from a major bank try to bash down the front door of his new client after a night out in Camberley to get his car keys from his desk (he was drunk) and despite his ‘excellent’ references it turned out his boss at his last company was supplying him with drugs, he tried to kick up a fuss stating he had been dismissed unfairly until the CCTV in reception showed what he had been doing, another contractor decided to keep a client laptop and Police had to be called round to fetch it, another contractor named his client he was working for on a website/forum slagging them off and was dismissed straight away. Another contractor bragged how good his money was in front of other contractors earning less, and was immediately given a pay reduction to match everybody else, another one as part of his contract had to keep his pager on as part of his shift support, on 5 occasions he had it switched off…..do you want me to continue ?
Comment by Craig on 21 April 2009:

That shows exactly what I said there are good and bad of each side so perhaps this thread has gone full circle.
Comment by smithie on 23 June 2009:

funny; i came across this after typing in ‘hate recruitment agents’ after becoming disillusioned myself these last few weeks with them.

ive been made redundant, and i have found one vacancy - out of all the rest available (and i mean all the rest; desperate situation here!) - funnily enough, i got an interview within 2 days!

they are just a nightmare - scum would be a better word to use. they will be your best friend until some other comes along who might offer them a bigger commission.

of course, this is their job so to a degree its to be expected - but on the flip side there is no hard in keeping you in the loop, which they fail to do miserably.

i have spoken to about 12 different agents in the last 3 weeks - only one of them has rung me back a second time, after PROMISING they would let me know ‘quickly’ what was going on. its a complete joke. its actually made me doubt my own abilities - which isnt ideal when you are in a situation trying to sell yourself.

and the most important thing; how can we expect these unreliable, untrustworthy, immoral bunch of bastards to represent us in the best way possible when they seem to have no knowledge of the industry they are recruiting for?

im a web developer - i use PHP and Ruby, and the questions i get asked always go along the same lines … so, you have x number of experience on PHP … yes … x years using Ruby … yes … but hang on a minute, do you know any HTML?

AARRGRHGRHRG!!! someone please shoot all of them ….
Comment by John W. on 23 June 2009:

Well said Smithie,

I sympathise and agree with you entirely and have had the same treatment myself. It kind of shows just what a greed ridden society we live in. where money is king and nobody actually matters to anybody else.

The recruitment market is basically a load of crap. there are not the jobs there for the amount of candidates and agencies. Asfor doubting your own abilities, please do not get too down. I have felt the same way as a result of these so called “Recruitment Consultants”.

I work mainly in Visula Foxpro, because there is little or no competition in it, since everyone else has gone over to DotNET, although I cannot think why when you can do many of the same things in VFP just as well. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

People always fall for the Bill Gates “Next Big Thing” or “Sell”, which is exactly what he did with DotNET and everyone jumped ship.
Yet the previous tools were every bit as good and with most things that one could ever possibly need the programming market has been put on a hot wash and shrunk.

One bit of advice I might give you is showcase your talents on your own website at least you will get noticed for what you are good at whilst you are waiting for that “Ever-Illusive Highly Paid” position offered to you by the local agency down the road, which probably does not exist

Good Luck

John
Comment by John W. on 23 June 2009:

Smithie

I have just looked in my secret gun cupboard and just found an old AK47 owned by my great greandmother, she had it for protection apparently.

If you have any ammo I cvould lend it to you for a day or two
i’m joking by the way and trying to make you laugh - cheer up.
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

Well stop using agencies then !!….write directly to the companies yourself, ring up IT Directors yourself and sell yourself….you want a job you have to make 50 applications to get one interview at the moment….we are getting 150 applicants for each job….and one company was telling me that in 2008, they had 12 company disciplinaries, they employ Indians, Romanians, South African, Poles, South Africans….every single one of those disciplinaries was with a UK national employee….this recession will weed out a lot of the chaff for sure…No use complaining about agencies, get off your backside and do something about it, avoid agencies if you don’t like them. You do have a choice…..
Comment by smithie on 23 June 2009:

deedledum

the point is mate; the recruitment agencies have all the vacancies under their grasp; they never let you in on the company details, etc until you actually have a confirmed interview - so you dont even get the chance to seel yourself directly. you HAVE to rely on them doing your own job for you.

if vacancies were available to apply directly to - there wouldnt be an issue would there? the point is, there isnt any.

as for effectively cold calling companies; what a waste of time. if they had a job available, they would make an effort to look for someone (ie, advertise the position available). i know enough about directors to know that they havent got time to read x number of cover letters and bullshitted CV’s from random people.

cold calling might work if you’re some tea-making, human printer looking for their first job since leaving school on 10p an hour, but when you’re reasonably established in your field that just doesn’t work.
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

So now companies are just as bad as recruitment agencies ? You don’t have to rely on them (agencies) at all….just find out who your competitors are or which companies use your particular skill set and give them a call. An applicant cold calling a company is a candidate who is showing some initiaive, able to demonstrate confidence, and who is being proactive in a difficult market….You’ve slagged off agencies, directors, cold calling….If all else fails set up your own business. Ring a competitor company’s IT Director / Manager up and tell them your skill set, when they say send us your resume YOU say…Give me half an hour of your time, i’ll try and demonstrate to you what a potentially able, skilled, experienced and enthusiastic candidate I am and who potentially might be able to bring added value skills to your company and i’ll bring my CV with me to our meeting. Give them reasons why they SHOULD employ you….too many people sit back and expect the job to come to them, grit your teeth, get on the phone and do something REALLY proactive about it….
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

EVERYTHING you have said in your messages is NEGATIVE….you need to change your mind set….
Comment by John W. on 23 June 2009:

Deedledum

Smithie is of course totally correct, you agencies have got what amounts to a stranglehold on the market in general. It’s all very well saying, write to an I.T director of some company or other, but when they have been so blinkered into using agencies for so many years, getting to take any notice of an individual in his own right is next to impossible. I have had this myself, I know exactly what it is like. I think the Monopolies and Mergers Comission should be looking at some of the larger “groups” of recruitment companies i.e the S3 Group for example, comprising at the last count of around 12 individual recruitment companies. You lot have a monopoly on the industry and you no damn well that by putting a barrier between the guy wuith the skill and the employer who wants to employ that skill, you can make a fast buck. It’s is immoral and disgusting.
Smithie is totally correct.
Comment by John W. on 23 June 2009:

Deedledum

“EVERYTHING you have said in your messages is NEGATIVE….you need to change your mind set….”

I wondered when we would get round to a good old fashioned patronising. Remmeber Deedledum the people you recruit or don’t whichever the case maybe probably know more than you do. that is why you are the middle man and the guy at the sharp end is the one with the skills. Recruiting is not a skill in the true sense of the word. It is nothing more than glorified salesmanship. The teeth and shoes are probably shinier though
Comment by smithie on 23 June 2009:

deedledum,

firstly; i’ve not slagged off companies or directors - it’s not a negative thing saying they haven’t got time to read people’s CV’s: that’s a fact, they haven’t (which is why they use recruitment agencies in the first place).

and come on, be honest with yourself. which director or owner of a company, in their right mind, would go and waste £40k plus on some random guy who cold called them - and who they DIDN’T NEED??

that’s no way to run a business, if there is no requirement for an extra person to slot in, why would you let some cold caller create himself a role - and an expensive one at that?

it’s not just the salary - HR, tax, NI … all the other crap on top. as i said before, i could see why a company might employ an enthusiastic junior on this principle, as there is little risk and cost.
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

So you’ve answered all your own questions, you are too expensive to employ !! ….So you think the only jobs around are the ones in job centres ? agencies and newspapers ? you think companies only want to employ juniors ? How do you know that when you call the IT manager, that they might just be about to finish reviewing their own internal candidates ? what if a candidate dies ? Put it this way when a vacancy comes around, they will remember the person who showed an interest….you never get a second chance at making a first impression…..
Comment by smithie on 23 June 2009:

you’re missing the point though;

fair enough - if i cold call and badger enough people, i MIGHT find myself a job somewhere along the line. but the odds are slim.

much better odds - or so youd think - would be applying for vacancies advertised through agencies. there are plenty of them, so surely theres a higher chance of getting further with one or more of them.

that of course, is if the agency in question can do their job properly, and represent you to the company as best they can …. but they cant. which is the whole point of my post in the first place; nothing to do with my own ability in getting a job.
Comment by Andy Richards on 23 June 2009:

As a founder/director of a staffing agency and industry veteran, I must say I have seen things spiral out of control. Too many agencies put quick profit ahead of the contractor’s well-being and trample their rights without getting as much as a slap on the wrist.

That annoys me as it gives those agencies that do operate ethically a bad name as well.
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

And why should a recruiter make a special effort for you when it is likely there are 20 other candidates who have more experience and may have a more positive attitude than you ???
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

Is there something on your CV that makes you stand out head and shoulders above the rest ?
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

What makes you stand out from others with similar skills ? Why should an employer interview you when he/she can interview 5 other candidates who have more skills / experience ?? As I said before you need to change your approach and get rid of the negative attitude….
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

Employers use CV’s to find out reasons why they SHOULDN’T employ people as opposed to why they SHOULD….however a candidate who has spoken to the company and is a voice and is able to reflect some enthusiasm to a potential employer WILL stand out…..the fact you poo pood my idea makes you EXACTLY like any other person searching for a job…..
Comment by deedledum on 23 June 2009:

“fair enough - if i cold call and badger enough people, i MIGHT find myself a job somewhere along the line. but the odds are slim.” - This shows you aren’t really that motivated to get off your arse…..

“much better odds - or so youd think - would be applying for vacancies advertised through agencies. there are plenty of them, so surely theres a higher chance of getting further with one or more of them” - see my comments above….you need to apply for 50 jobs to get 1/2 interviews at the moment…

“that of course, is if the agency in question can do their job properly, and represent you to the company as best they can …. but they cant. which is the whole point of my post in the first place; nothing to do with my own ability in getting a job.” - They may do, but if they have 10 other candidates who are better than you, then they won’t bother….as it would waste your time and an employer’s time…
Comment by John W. on 23 June 2009:

Andy Richards

Yes I take your point entirely Andy. Things really have spiralled
out of control. Years ago the majority of staffing agencies were OK to work for. Indeed myself I had a 14 week contract with City Staff in Coventry with IBM in Warwick and I must say it was a great place to work at, even if they do have the company policy of not providing any references for their temporary or contract staff. Like you correctly say though there are to many “shysters” in the game now and it was about time some serious weeding was done. This all happened during “Thatcherdom”, where she taught us that greed was good any every man for himself. I take your points entirely and can see perfectly why you get annoyed by the agencies, who give all of the rest a bad name. For all I know you are probably one of the few decent ones and if you would like another CV to add to your collection I would be more than happy to supply you with it.

john
Comment by Craig on 23 June 2009:

Dear god

This has come up again. About 100 posts ago I dealt with all 10 points and never got a reply from the original poster responding to my original points.

In essence there are good and bad agencies and good and bad clients/candidates. All should be looked at on a case by case basis. The recession will determine the good from the bad to a large degree as it is doing with contractors and candidates alike.

The business world moves on and I guess we all should also; this is a pointless site where many bitter people wish to vent. Fair enough but life goes on.

Our clients respect us and our work ethic and we are paid purely on results……That says it all and many of the views on this site are clearly of little genuine substance.

Nick Halstead, What is this Tech?

10 Reasons Why I hate Recruitment Agents

1. Asking ‘What is your interview process’

2. Ring you up to tell you nothing

3. Asking to come meet us

4. Editing Candidate CV’s

5. Lying

6. Imaginary Companies

7. Spam

8. Removing Contact Details

9. Recruiting those they just placed

10. Lastly they are all scum

They on occasion find me brilliant people

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